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Lost...again

Lost...again

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Good day all :)

There seems to always be a thread or two on here about the merits of various stocks,springs,brakes,sights and things that lift up and rest on your shoulder. This is a GOOD thing. It encourages the exchange of ideas and opinions, and certainly helps the economy.
However..... I cannot recall the last tme I saw somebody complete an " Ubergun" and actually post a comprehensive range report.
Ive floated the idea of a head to head range day before, but given the distances this would be impractical except on a local basis. Therefore , stealing an idea from another forum.............Show us your groups.
Five groups of five at 100 yards on one target.The honor system is the only judge.
I would like to know just what the difference is between a 400 dollar norc and a 2000 dollar norc. Take all day and just post the best you can do.
Im not knocking anybodies gun, your money your gun...have fun. I just want somebody to step up to the plate and prove that their 'Ubergun " will shoot the tits off a fly at 100 yds......or not. Any Norc 305, any and all states of tune.............Just show us yuor groups.
Might end up selling a lot more goodies.....or it might stop pple buying goodies that arent worth the money.
My personal belief is that pple are upgrading way too quick before they tune into the gun they just bought. You cant beat time on the range tuning yourself up as well as the gun.

Thats the most sensible thing Im going to say all day :)
Thank you for reading this and I hope someone steps up to the plate :)
 
At the risk of being flamed out of existence I'll post what I think based on my little experience and much pondering.

I don't think all the stuff you buy will make as much difference as the load you use. Once the rifle is tight with no loose and rattling parts (that would include tossing the factory spring guide for a better one) I suspect if you took the time to work up the load that your rifle likes you would get more out of it than the other stuff and I'll tell you why.
I shot a lot of factory 147 -150 grain stuff with 2-3 inch groups at 50 yds. Not spectacular but whatever.
Then I wanted to hunt with it and bought some Nosler 168 grain soft points. When I went to sight it in it was shooting a full 4" left at 50 yds with slightly smaller groups. I went back and forth with ammo and sure enough the different ammo was the only thing accounting for the different POI.
I talked to Hungry about this and he explained barrel harmonics with each load accounted for the difference.
If you can work up the right bullet/powder load for your rifle that works with the harmonics of that particular rifle I suspect that will have more effect on accuracy than any other change you could make.

I'm going to put on my Nomex suit and leave now.
 
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What makes you think you'd be flamed out of existence for your statements? What I've experienced very recently may at least partially support your theory. I bought my Norc last spring and did nothing with it except mess around with the crappy scope mount that came with it to better align and secure it, move the front sight to compensate for an over-indexed barrel, and read Zediker's notes on reloading. I loaded 168 SMK's with IMR 4064 and H4895 - only a couple different charge weights for each. Right off the bat, I decided to stick with the H4895, as Mr. Zediker's statement that if your rifle doesn't shoot with 41.5 grains of it and a 168 SMK, look for a different rifle really stuck in my head. This, and the fact that I could use H4895 in other calibers I reload for (more so than 4064), even though 4064 shot a bit tighter at 100 (~1-1/4 vs 1-1/2 with 4895).

I didn't get a lot of other chances to play through the summer and in September, I sustained a pretty serious knee injury which effectively put me out of commission until after Christmas. So, my semi-idle hands and simple mind set about "improving" my M14. I picked up a Promag mount, an M14.ca ORSG, a new rear sight from spcamno, I TIG welded the gas assembly (even though I surface ground my lock for a proper, tight fit), and I bedded the rifle. Man, I'm gonna set the world on fire now!:rolleyes: I can tell you that the only things I'm happy about now, having finally shot the setup again only recently, are the nicer picture & adjustments of the new rear sight and the fact that I have experienced NO failures whatsoever since installing the ORSG. How does it print now? Well, that's another matter. Though I haven't given up on it yet, I'm having trouble with proper fitment of the mount to the stripper clip guide - I need a scope to shoot good groups at 100 and beyond. Best I've shot with the irons is about 4" at 100 (first four shots went into 2-3/4").

So what I'm saying is, even with the original ORSG, crappy scope mount, and no bedding in the even crappier wood stock, with good, straight handloads, I was fairly happy with this rifle (for what it is). After "improving", I'm not so sure anymore. Though I'm not done yet...:)

Rooster
 
Thinkning about this a bit more now, I suppose I'll need to re-tune my loads because the work that I've done to this rifle is quite likely to have changed how the whole unit acts (harmonics). Huh! Just thought of that. I'll report back once I get home in March.

Rooster
 
Perforator said:
I don't think all the stuff you buy will make as much difference as the load you use. Once the rifle is tight with no loose and rattling parts

I talked to Hungry about this and he explained barrel harmonics with each load accounted for the difference.
If you can work up the right bullet/powder load for your rifle that works with the harmonics of that particular rifle I suspect that will have more effect on accuracy than any other change you could make.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hack up your quote here Perferator but my personal thoughts is your right on the money! If you have tightened your rifle up , welded your gas assembly (or shimmed it tight), replaced the spring guide rod and spring. The next big step is hand loading. My personal m305 which has been built with Hungry's help, will ping when it has its long barrel and a USGI flash hider. But with a bad hand load or some factory ammo my rifle will shoot 3-4" groups at 100. With a hand load of 44.5 grains of 748 and 155 amax bullets it will shoot usually around 1 1/2"- 1 3/4" groups shooting off sand bags.

Can you make a norc in to a Sub monster!? I'm sure you can, but a match heavy barrel, TRW bolt and a super tight headspace is going to be the next step and that's going to cost you.

Just my thoughts, I know there are a bunch of guys that are way more experianced then I am with these rifles.
 
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One thing I will add, if you do decide to add a scope and mount to your m14, spend the money and buy the best scope mount you can afford. I didn't, and ended up chasing around 4-6" groups for a long time before I realized my scope was moving around after every shot.
 
Thanks for the input :) I thought this was just going to be a dead end.
The main point of my post was to actually see the reults of different stages of tune.
I dont want anyone to eat humble pie, or laugh at anyone. If somebody does "X" to their Norc and they have a significant improvement, show us. If they get no improvement, tell us. If you have a Norc that is anywhere near MOA show me the groups and tell me what you did.
I have a sweet load for mine and the process of finding it was an eye opener. Using 150 FMJBT and H4895 with different loads from 40.0 thru 44.5 in .5 rises I got groups from1.5 inches to 7 inches.(Same rifle, same day) To my mind the greatest improvement for this platform is a handloading rig and a lot of patience. And time on the range.
I would rather see a review of a product or improvement, by a CGN er, than a dealer. I would take my hat off to anyone who built a true MOA Norc....but show me.
Dont mean to be a bore , but dont like to see products getting hyped up for no reason either.
 
I'm in the process of building an 18" Norinco using the Blackfeather stock and most of the usual upgrades and plan on building it step by step to see what effect each of the "upgrades" have on the rifle's performance.

Like you said, it's kinda odd to see how there's so much talk about the M1a's accuracy, yet there seem to be little to no actual group pictures on the net. I'm really curious to see what's achievable using factory ammo.
 
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