Sighting in at 50 yards 25 yards

Camj

Camj

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I was sighting in my 22 savage (Mk11). I noticed I was hitting slighly right at 50 yard. The grouping was very good but slighly right. When I shifted back to 25 yeads I notcied that I was hitting the same amount only now to the left. I was wondering if I adjust for the 50 yards by moving the scope 0.5" right to compensate will this move the 25 yard zero right so now both are on line. Makes sense in some ways but was wondering there is some other reason or solution. Or this this normal to have some deviation at the different ranges?

Thanks.
 
Camj said:
I was sighting in my 22 savage (Mk11). I noticed I was hitting slighly right at 50 yard. The grouping was very good but slighly right. When I shifted back to 25 yeads I notcied that I was hitting the same amount only now to the left. I was wondering if I adjust for the 50 yards by moving the scope 0.5" right to compensate will this move the 25 yard zero right so now both are on line. Makes sense in some ways but was wondering there is some other reason or solution. Or this this normal to have some deviation at the different ranges?
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No that does not sound normal at all. About the only way I can see that happening is if there is a significant and changing wind. Or if you changed the ammo you are using. Wind moves .22LR bullets around quite a bit, especially at 50 yards compared to 25 yards. I have also found that HV ammo typically shoots higher and to the left of slower subsonic target ammo. About the only other thing I can see is that you may be canting the gun and getting changes in point of impact as a result. If you cant one way at 50 and the opposite way at 25 that could give you some left right movement in point of impact. My view is that canting is the silent killer of good group sizes, and everything you can do to keep your gun vertical helps, especially if you have a high mounted scope.

cantedhold2x350.gif
 
If I follow your explanation, you are having your bullet path cross your line of sight going left to right at about 35 yards. That can only happen if your line of sight starts left of your line of your bore. if your scope crosshairs are tipped to the right, (scope not square to the bore), then sighting in by holding the crosshairs square to the target will result in your line of sight starting to the left of the bore line and then crossing the bore line. When properly mounted, an extension of the vertical cross hair should be exactly through the center of your bore. So long as the bullet is not tumbling, it will fly straight (left to right) until / unless affected by wind. Even a bent barrel shoots it's bullet in a straight line, not a curve.

Ha! I see Ron's post above beat me to it, and his as excellent schematic of the problem!
 
My first thought was the scope/parallax. If the scope does not have an adjustable objective, it's possible you're having parallax issues with it. I don't know what scope you're using, but even scopes made for rimfires tend to have a 50 yard parallax unless they're an AO scope. If it's something like a 3-9x hunting scope, there is a 99% chance the parallax is set @ 100 yards in which case..the reticle (=crosshairs) can actually appear to move when looking through it. When that happens, there is no way you'll be shooting tight groups..more likely inconsistent ones.

If your 2 groups are as tight as you're describing, I wonder about the scope bases, whether or not they're perfectly aligned with the barrel/bore etc. Savage has a little trouble with that from time to time.
 
.22LRGUY said:
Savage has a little trouble with that from time to time.
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Some of the Savage factory Weaver style bases have been found to be a bit narrow. When combined with rings that don't adjust tight enough, you can have the screws tight, but still have a loose fit on the bases.
 
Thanks for the help! I think I will:
Get new rings. I am using the cheapies that came with it.
Make sure the scope is not canted in the rings
Be careful to see what happens canting the rifle on purpose.
 
Camj said:
Thanks for the help! I think I will:
Get new rings. I am using the cheapies that came with it.
Make sure the scope is not canted in the rings
Be careful to see what happens canting the rifle on purpose.
Click to expand...

There is canting in the rings, and also canting of the whole gun to watch for. Also check your parallax. Get the gun centered on a target in a fixed position at 25 yards. Move your head up and down and side to side while watching the crosshairs on the target. When parallax is zeroed the cross hairs will appear to be "painted" on the target, and not move as you move your head. Repeat at 50 yards.
 
Ron AKA:

I cant (get it) thank you enough. Last night I got the rifle as straight and level as possible. The I carefully looked through the scope and sure enough there was a slight cant. I have straightend that out as best as possible. Now it off to the range,
I am thinking of getting one of those levels that you can attach to the scope. The rifle is an inexpensive Mark2 savage, but it shoots remarkabley well.

Thanks again!
 
Camj said:
Ron AKA:

I cant (get it) thank you enough. Last night I got the rifle as straight and level as possible. The I carefully looked through the scope and sure enough there was a slight cant. I have straightend that out as best as possible. Now it off to the range,
I am thinking of getting one of those levels that you can attach to the scope. The rifle is an inexpensive Mark2 savage, but it shoots remarkabley well.
Click to expand...

One of the things I have done is put a short 6" level on the top of the scope adjustments caps to get the thing level. Not the best, but perhaps better than purely by eye. The other thing I do is use targets with long vertical lines on it, and when I set the target up I use a level to ensure those lines are perfectly vertical. Then last I ensure my vertical cross hairs follow those vertical lines.
 
Great idea. I have newly scoped my GCG 44 so that will help again. Thanks so much for all the advice. This is what makes the forum so valuable!
 
Wheeler makes a set of magnetic levels $15 ish if I recall they work great . along with some type of vise you can clamp the rifle in . first plumb the bore for vertical center then scope and your good to go .
 
Potashminer said:
If I follow your explanation, you are having your bullet path cross your line of sight going left to right at about 35 yards. That can only happen if your line of sight starts left of your line of your bore. if your scope crosshairs are tipped to the right, (scope not square to the bore), then sighting in by holding the crosshairs square to the target will result in your line of sight starting to the left of the bore line and then crossing the bore line. When properly mounted, an extension of the vertical cross hair should be exactly through the center of your bore. So long as the bullet is not tumbling, it will fly straight (left to right) until / unless affected by wind. Even a bent barrel shoots it's bullet in a straight line, not a curve.

Ha! I see Ron's post above beat me to it, and his as excellent schematic of the problem!
Click to expand...

If you and Ron AKA are correct (regarding the cant, either via the shooter's hold on the rifle or a misaligned scope), would that not also imply that the OP's groups at 50 yards would also be slightly up/down when compared to the group at 25 yards?
 
He's sighting in a .22 lr at 50 yards. Not a bunch of up/down difference at 25 yards in my experience. As I understood the issue, his groups were left of Point of Aim at 25 yards and Right of Point of Aim at 50 yards. I've never experienced that, so trying my best to suggest a solution to the problem as stated. Other than cant, could be as simple as different hold / cheek weld for different ranges and result from a parallax flaw in the optics.
 
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Potashminer said:
He's sighting in a .22 lr at 50 yards. Not a bunch of up/down difference at 25 yards in my experience. As I understood the issue, his groups were left of Point of Aim at 25 yards and Right of Point of Aim at 50 yards. I've never experienced that, so trying my best to suggest a solution to the problem as stated. Other than cant, could be as simple as different hold / cheek weld for different ranges and result from a parallax flaw in the optics.
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Agreed, but based on the picture Ron provided, the cant issues would also (in my pea brain) result in one of those groups being higher/lower than the other, perhaps very little, but at least some relative to the difference in POI left to right.
 
Ron's diagram appears to be based on a sight in when "square", then results when canted. Looks to be like I have experienced. See the thread on "urban prone". In the case here, the guy sighted in at some distance, then got different results at a different distance. Why? Every shooter should sight in a 22 "square" at 25 or 50 yards and then shoot a few shots with the rifle laid 90 degrees on its side - use Left-Right cross hair as the vertical. See where the group ends up. Easy to do. Not a theory. Just do it and see.
 
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