Sighting in problem with Model 52B

[employee]

I have a 1940 production 52B with Redfield Olympic Rear aperture sights and Vaver front sights.

I was trying to sight in a 25 yards but run out of elevation adjustment (rear sight as low as it will go) but the rifle still hits about 5 inches high.

Then I shot it at 100yrds and could not get it to print on an 81/2 x 11 page but it was a windy day..(really windy like 40 km/hr gusting)

I know this rifle works with this sight combination as my grandmother shot matches with it for years at 50m and 100m and have the trophies to prove it.

When I stripped it down for cleaning the only thing I changed when I re-assembled it was a small (cigarette rolling paper?) peace of paper ? Maybe parchment? was behind the barrel band (between the stock and barrel) and covered back to the point where the stock puts pressure on the barrel.

Could this small change cause that much of a change in the POI, should I take it apart again and install a piece of paper? Or is it going to work just fine at 40yrds and 50 yrds (my normal rimfire range) or is it pretty much set up ideal for the 50m and 100m shooting. (I looked at the rimfire ballistics info that is stickied and I don't think it will work out)

(Just for the record the groups are tiny at 25 yrds they are just to high up)

If anything dose not make sense here let me know and I will try to give a better description.

And a photo just because
I Posted this over at rimfire central first thinking it would be a good resource but no response after 24 hrs so come on Canadian nutz what do I need to do for the next time I go to the range?

 

[maynard]

If you are using a round insert in the front sight, is there a chance it could be in upside down? Or if it is a post it could be bent or just too low. Change front sight inserts and see how that goes.
Shooting a .22 at 100 yards with iron sights is like shooting a .308 at 1000. It is not something that you can just point and shoot and expect perfect results. A gusting 40 km/hr wind could put you off the paper.
What ammo are you using?

 

[22lr]

maybe rifle being so old and if it was sitting with barrel leaning against the wall - I have heard some stories that after a few years of storage rifle builds on residual deformation on a barrel. Either that or have another look at front sight. I have seen one rifle with front pin filed down by previous owner, I had no other options but to scope it. Some people actually either replace front sight or built up front pin with silver solder to make it taller.

 

[buffdog]

Sighting in problems?

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First of all, you have to have a bit of patience. You say you posted this on RimfireCentral and no one gave a solution to your problems within 24 hours. You have to give a thread time to work. The knowledgable people out there will help anyone out, but they are not sitting at home in front of their computer just waiting to give instant answers. They have a life too.

It is quite obvious that your grandmother knew a lot about shooting. When you took the rifle apart to clean it, you apparently removed a bedding or packing shim. This puts pressure on the barrel, and can severely effect the point of impact. The second thing is the rifle may have been stored a fair time before you got it. The stock could have dried out a bit, or even warped a bit putting pressure on the barrel. You could also have changed the pressure on the action screws when you reassembled it, so the rifle does not have the same pressure on the action as it did before.

Not having a picture of the left side of the rifle, particularly the fore-end of the stock, check if there is a hole that corresponds to the hole on the right side of the fore-end. If so, you have an electric bedder. This device gives a pressure on the barrel that can be varied to compensate for conditions. When you took the rifle apart, you probably changed the settings and bedding of the barrel at the electric bedder. Also, check inside the bedder bodies to see that the center screws are there.

To use an electric bedder, you have to have a small dry cell battery attached to a light and a clip for the barrel. One wire will go on the barrel, and the other connects to the bedder. You turn the screws out until the light no longer shines. Turning in the bedder screws will light the light. Go easy, do not crank down hard on the bedding screw. All you need to do is get the light to light. Do both sides. You then put EVEN pressure on the barrel by screwing in the bedder center screws, using the dial marks on the outside of the bedder. Move each bedding screws (left and right) the same amount of clicks or divisions of the circle. You have to fire...adjust...fire...adjust until the rifle shoots the smallest group. These electric bedders are an old system, but they worked. Nowdays, the rage is barrel weights or adjustable tuners on the outside of the barrel.

If you have an electric bedder, get an older target shooter to help you, and show you how to use it. They were quite popular in your grandmothers time.

As far as being patient waiting for answers, just be patient. 24 hours wait is not bad but there are quite a few threads that have a second or third post by the same person, all within a couple of hours of each other, demanding why their question was not being answered.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

The shim may well have played a role in bedding. I could well be missing something crucial here about that barrel band you mention, but if its shooting too high, its not due to something beneath the barrel that used to push it up higher. That's a beautiful looking rifle. I wonder if the proper ammo was a lot lower velocity and had a lower point of impact? Target rifles usually shot standard, not high velocity ammo.

Electric bedder? You pulling our legs?

 

[employee]

OK..

Grizzlypeg

Forgot to mention I was shooting Eley Target I will never fire high velocity copper jacket ammo through a target rifle. But maybe the old match grade ammo had a lower velocity than this stuff ? ?? anyone know ?

buffdog

She sure did. Grandfather was the Gunsmith too.

I have never heard of an electric bedder, and I think you are referring to the screws that are on later model 52 (D or E?) rifles that allowed you to change the barrel pressure relatively easily. (sounds like a device that you describe would be used on that kind of rifle) If some close up photos would help I can take a few.

Anyone have an idea what the action screws should be torqued to?

This particular model has only a barrel band that is held in place with a single bolt. Its hard to describe but the bolt has a taper to it, so yes you can change the barrel pressure with it though. (I think) If I am mistaken, which I might be, I will have to see if I can find someone around here that knows a bit more. My Dad was a target shooter but has no idea how to adjust this rifle as it was his moms and he shot a Match 54.

The shim is what I was asking about and so perhaps that is why it was there in the first place.

And hey my fellow Canadian Gunnutz where a lot faster than the guys over on RFC (also good guys though)

22lr

Another good point but rifle was stored on its side for the last 30 years but wood for sure could have aged etc. ( I had to repair a hairline crack between the magwell and the trigger guard)

maynard

I thought about this as well thinking perhaps I installed the front peep site backwards though. (Checked though and I did not)
Vaver front sights are different then the ones with drop in sights, instead of the 2 hoops it has screw in apertures to change the size of the front peep. Good thinking though, have to check the sights on my CIL190 to make sure I don't make that mistake


So in conclusion maybe I should have shot it before cleaning it but the bolt was stiff due to the 30- 40 year old oil that was on it, and figured it needed a good cleaning. So here is where I am at, maybe I will try and find a piece of paper similar to the one I removed, re-shim it and see what happens from there.

Thanks for all the help everyone, I am new to all of this..

 

[buffdog]

High point of impact

The shim may well have played a role in bedding. I could well be missing something crucial here about that barrel band you mention, but if its shooting too high, its not due to something beneath the barrel that used to push it up higher. I wonder if the proper ammo was a lot lower velocity and had a lower point of impact? Target rifles usually shot standard, not high velocity ammo.

Electric bedder? You pulling our legs?

I missed something here myself. When the barrel band was mentioned, it dawned on me that a lot of 52s had a barrel band on them. Sure enough, this one does. The point of lower velocity for .22 target ammo is a valid one. So, lets throw a couple more variables in here.

There is a barrel band on this rifle. If it were tightened too much, it would pull the barrel downward into the stock very tightly. If this were to happen close to a vibration node, it could have an effect on the grouping. What we are affecting here is the bedding. It might be fruitful to play around with the tightness of the barrel band.

No mention of ammunition used to shoot the rifle was made. Various makes and types of ammunition should be used to see if this is a factor. Try some target ammunition.

Holding is important. Sighting is important. Some target shooters deliberately sighted in a bit low, so that the bulls eye balanced on top of the front sight. Some used the center of the bull as an aiming point. If Junior uses a center hold and Grandmother used a lower (balance the bull on top of the sight hold), then 5 inches could be possible. We older shooters were taught to balance the bullseye on top of the front sight.

No mention of the type of front sight was made. If a circle type, then a center hold was used......if a post type, then the "put the black bull on top of the post" was used. If a post was used, shooters "customized" them so that they could shoot where THEY wanted the bullet to go. As mentioned, the front sight may have been altered. If front sights came with the Vaver, then try some more and different inserts.

I used Winchester 52s that were club rifles, but my Target rifle was a Remington 513T Matchmaster. Being young and going to school at the time, it was more affordable.

Now, to the electric bedder. I sxxt you not. They were quite common in the 50s and 60s for target rifles. These were inserted into the fore end of the target rifle at about a 90 degree angle (included) or about 45 degrees from a vertical center line under the barrel. They had a screw thread in them, and a headless screw in the center in this thread. They usually had click stops and markings around the outside face of the insert, (you might think of a turret on a scope that has click stops, a screw dial that moves in or out, and markings around the edge for references.) By screwing the bedder in or out, you could put more or less pressure on the barrel bedding and hopefully find a point where you could get small groups with that particular type of ammunition. If you changed ammo, then chances were that you had to re-adjust the pressure.

The problem was, how do you know when you are in contact with the barrel EVENLY ON BOTH SCREWS. Think of how a flashlight works. If you put a clip on the end of a wire, attach the wire to the outside of a small bulb. Attach another wire from the center terminal of the bulb to one side of a dry cell flashlight battery. Attach another wire from the other terminal of the flashlight battery to another clip.

Now, if you touch the two clips together, you create a circuit and the bulb lights. If you attach one clip to the rifle barrel, and another to the bedder, and the bedder is touching the barrel, a circuit is completed and the bulb lights. Because the bedder is inlet into the forearm of the rifle, if the screw in the center of the bedder is NOT touching the rifle barrel, no circuit is made and the light stays out. The bedder is slightly below the barrel channel, and the wood stock insulates it from the barrel.

What you did was back BOTH screws in the bedders OUT so that no contact was made, and the light went out. You then screwed ONE back in gently, and when the screw touched the barrel, the light lit. You then disconnected the wire clip from the one bedder, connected it to the bedder on the opposite side, and repeated the process. This gave you a very close equal pressure on both sides of the barrel. You then proceeded to turn the screws of the bedders in an EQUAL number of divisions, proceeding a few divisions at a time, then moving the other bedder screw the same amount.

Remember, back in the 50s to 70s, there was not the interest in benchrest, accuracy, and other parts of the shooting sports that we have today. We did not have all the scientific testing methods, chronographs, and excellence of equipment that is presently available.

The modern day equivalent of the electric bedder is the barrel tuner. With the discovery and knowledge that a barrel vibrates in certain wave patterns, and that there are high and low peaks to this vibration, shooters began experimenting with trying to put proper barrel bedding at a 'null' point that is neutral in vibration activity. By putting a tuner on a barrel, you can adjust these vibration waves to a certain extent, and create tighter groups.

If you go to a Gun Show, and get a chance to look at a LOT of the older target rifles, you will eventually come across some with the electric bedders in the fore end of the stock. Then you will see for yourself what the concept was, and how it worked. Most shooters did not use them, but the real serious shooters used everything they could to get a few more points on the score card.
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[buffdog]

Rifle shooting high

EMPLOYEE

I was on line trying to explain the concept of the electic bedding device that was in use during my (and probably your Grandmothers) time. When I posted the rather long explanation, I saw your post.

"GRANDFATHER WAS THE GUNSMITH" That would explain a few things. He probably worked this rifle for your Grandmother, and would have taken pains to see that it was one of the best shooters. Packing or shimming a barrel was common in those days. It also explains the VAVER front sight. I am fairly sure that the Vaver was not an option at the time. Lyman, Winchester, Redfield and Marble-Goss sights were.

Only a very few businesses specialized in target accessories. Clark and Freeland come to mind. They sold the electric bedders so that a gun smith could change the fore end pressure by installing one. Winchester made a similar adjustable bedding system on the 52D target rifle, but the 52D did not come out until 1961. Your rifle is a 1940s production, so in answer to my question, " there is a hole in the right side of the fore end. Is there a similar hole on the left side? Are these an adjustable pressure bedding system? If so, chances are it was installed later by your Grandfather, or earlier and is from Freeland or someone similar. If your Grandfather was a gunsmith, it could even be made by him. It is a relatively simple project.

It is also possible that he altered the front sight FOR YOUR GRANDMOTHER'S PARTICULAR HOLD. In fact, I would say that is quite probable. We all played with the front sight inserts to see what worked best for US. We were the only one shooting the rifle, so it was made to fit US, and our shooting style. As mentioned, if your Grandmother used a different hold than you do, then the bullets would inpact in a different place. Eyesight is also different. I preferred a wider post front sight, similar to the U.S. Marine Springfield 1903 sight. The wider top aided in seeing if the rifle was canted, as long as you used the 6 o'clock hold. It did not help with a center hold, because it covered up too much of the bulls eye.

So, just because it fit Grandmother, it obviously does not fit you or your style of shooting AS IT IS NOW. This is a very easy correction.

What you have to do is make a front sight insert that fits YOUR STYLE OF SHOOTING AND HOLDING. You have to increase the height of the front sight, and zero from there. This may be a bit of trial and error to find the correct height.

You said that the rifle makes very small groups. What YOU have to do is move those groups to the center of the bulls eye. A simple sight insert alteration should be able to do that.
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[maynard]

Kind of hard to from the picture but is the front sight on a dovetail mounted to the barrel? Try using your CIL 190 front sight in place of the Vaver.