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rudar

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I have a Remington 700 in .270 Winchester that I free-floated the barrel on a couple years back. If I'm shooting off sandbags, or even just resting my elbows on the bench, it shoots into a decent group, about 2" high at 100 yards, which is sorta recommended. Once I move off the bench, though, and shoot from hunting field positions, it (or I) shoot consistently lower---standing offhand at 50yards I'm looking at maybe a 7-8" 'group', probably averaging 3" low; sitting or kneeling at 100 yards each give maybe 6" 'groups' about 2" low on average. (guesstimating those numbers from memory, but they're about ball park I kept the targets so could measure them at home if it makes a difference...)

So my question is, is this a 'normal' result of being less well braced in field positions? Or a problem with technique, or with the gun? Should I adjust the sights up so I'm hitting center from field positions, and then aim off if I need to when shooting off sandbags? Should I learn to shoot better so my field positions end up shooting to the same POI as bench rests? Should I leave the sights adjusted for the bench and aim a smidge high on deer? Should I start saving up for a different gun?
 
This is very common as most people, and I assume you, shoot from bags with no forend grip allowing the rifle to basically free recoil against the shoulder. I would recommend you change your "off the bags" shooting to include some of means of restraining your forend.
I personally shoot with my left hand over my scope, holding the rifle down. This may not give me the best possible groups but it does perfectly, give me the same POI when I'm shooting in the field and hunting situations.
 
That's weird. I sight in 3" high @ 100. Tried standing offhand: dead center @50. Tried sitting: 3" high @ 100yds.

I'd bet on some difference in form: make sure all the variables are the same: pressure on the grip with your strong hand, pressure against your shoulder (not too much, not too little), breathing, squeeze trigger, etc.

It's amazing how many things we start doing differently as soon as we exit our comfort zone; it also pays to practice those offhand shots with a .22 (bonus points if it's the same type of action as your centerfire); I did notice I was initially shooting low, but I think it was due to jerking the trigger / anticipating the shot / not waiting for a good sight picture. I corrected it and when I switched to my centerfire I was dead on.

Hope it helps.
 
With some rifles, pressure on the fore end makes them shoot a different POI than when there is no pressure. Personally I don't like those rifles but it's not that uncommon.
 
It varies between shooters...it does not affect me that way... it is good you discovered this problem you have... I suggest not resting your rifle on sandbags, but rest your arm/wrist on the bags and hold your rifle... see how that works out for you.
 
my oldest son has great success with shooting and letting the rifle do it's thing as it pleases with not holding the forearm down at all, either off the bench rest or shooting free hand. And he is a dead eye head shot shooter on venison. I on the other hand hold the forearm while firing from both positions. It's just the way I grew up doing it. And no, I am not the greatest shooter around!
 
If the barrel is free floated would supporting the forend or not make any difference? I didn't think it would. Anyway for me when I get weird lows or highs (or lefts/rights) it's usually form. For me mostly in the trigger pull. I try to go really slow while practice shooting and sometime my errors become more obvious.
 
A lot of people who shoot free hand subconciously let the front drop as they are squeezing the trigger, they do not realize it but they do.

I would suggest getting a friend to watch while you shoot, or better yet get a camcorder and set it up next time your shooting to capture your form.

If this turns out to be the case the only thing that will cure it is practice,practice, and more practice.
 
crazydave said:
A lot of people who shoot free hand subconciously let the front drop as they are squeezing the trigger, they do not realize it but they do.

I would suggest getting a friend to watch while you shoot, or better yet get a camcorder and set it up next time your shooting to capture your form.

If this turns out to be the case the only thing that will cure it is practice,practice, and more practice.
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I remember The first time I used snap caps inserted randomly into a magazine while shooting pistol. Every time I pulled the trigger on a snap cap the front sight would dive. Never noticed it before that and had just compensated for it by moving the sights. Ever since than I've worked on that and it helped my rifle and pistol shooting a lot.
 
Don't argue with the results. If you shoot low from the standing position - raise the sights.

There are a lot of variables that account for this. I would suspect the way the butt meets your shoulder. Good for you to notice this issue.

Practice shooting standing and sitting the way you do when sitting on a log. Also practice a few shots from the left shoulder, as you would if an animal surprised by approaching from the right rear..
 
Ganderite said:
Don't argue with the results. If you shoot low from the standing position - raise the sights.

There are a lot of variables that account for this. I would suspect the way the butt meets your shoulder. Good for you to notice this issue.

Practice shooting standing and sitting the way you do when sitting on a log. Also practice a few shots from the left shoulder, as you would if an animal surprised by approaching from the right rear..
Click to expand...

The only problem with this suggestion is that you can be sure that one day a shot may come up where the OP may get a resting shot at a animal and in the heat of the moment forget about the sites being moved to match his form, resulting in a miss or worse a badly wounded animal.

Best to work on correcting the problem rather than make the problem less inconvenient imo
 
Rifles with any meaningful recoil shoot low for me when I shoot offhand, right around 3 inches lower at 100 yards. Its never been a problem in the field, and could even be twisted into an advantage. Most of my rifles are sighted to be about 3 inches high at 100, and most offhand shots are short. Dead-on at 100 is certainly useable for shots I'm likely to take offhand.

I've come to accept it as a result of bouncing off the bags, or away from a bone supported position compared to an unsupported offhand position but can't say for sure and quit caring. Sitting doesn't make much difference, except for when using a tight sling which drags the POI 3 down and 2 left.
 
When shooting from the bench either hold the rifle down with your freehand on the scope or grip the for end with your freehand resting on the bag. I believe the rifle starts to recoil as the bullet starts accelerating down the barrel and you want to control this recoil consistently. It is more pronouced with a heavy recoiling rifle. My 375 Ruger shot about 4" higher from the bench when I did not hold it down with my freehand.
Neil
 
I've never had this problem and whil eI can appreciate the guys referencing their experience with heavy recoiling rifles, the 270 is certainly not a stout kicker. The first thing that I would suspect is that the problem is not with the rifle, but with you. When you dry fire from the same positions do you see the same results in terms of reticle movement? Have you tried shooting prone off a pack? Has anyone else had the same experience with the rifle? These things would be helpful to know in order to diagnose the problem.
 
I had the same issue when sighting in my 30-06 X-Bolt. Shoots bang on while prone with bi-pod, but groups widen when shoot standing up. After a few boxes, I found that my butt position against my shoulder was completely different standing then prone, which not let the rifle seat properly against my shoulder and move when the trigger was pulled. Finding a good stance and shoulder placement really improved the groups to almost as close as prone.

In other words, most of the time its the rifleman and not the rifle. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for all the advice, folks!

First off, I measured up last week's targets to calculate a more precise average for each group; I'm reporting the group size as the straight distance between the most extreme shots, and the height is the mean of measured heights (so, ignoring windage for this) of each shot. Standing off-hand at 50 yards, I had 10 shots covering 12", centered 2-3/4" low. A bit of a mix of sitting and kneeling at 100 yards, I had a total of 18 shots, covering 16", centered 2-3/4" low.

I was back at the range today, and found maybe one more change of posture that helped. I didn't mess around with my bench/sandbag shooting style at all, because I wanted to try a few different loads with a new hunting bullet. But for comparison, I shot a 5-shot group with my 'plinking' load; it gave a 1.5" group pretty much on zero at 100 yards. (Once I've got a load for hunting, I'll adjust the scope a bit to bring this up to 1-1/2 or 2" high).

Then, concentrating mostly on follow-through and paying closer attention to what I was doing, I tried some more off-hand:
Sitting without the bench, I managed a 9-1/4", 6 shot group about 2" low at 100 yards, and standing I managed an offhand, 3-shot group 6" across and 2-1/2" low. Slightly better (but, also, fewer shots in each group, so...), and still substantially lower than the bench.

Lastly I tried moving my weight way further forward so I felt more like I was leaning over the rifle a bit, the same way one does from the bench. Perhaps that's what Hunter on a Budget means; or if I misinterpreted his comment, this interpretation seems to have worked for me. With that weight shift, I shot a 3-shot group from sitting, 5" wide and only 1/2" low at 100 yards. And standing off-hand, I shot 6 rounds at 50 yards, 5-1/2" group 1/2" low. So that's starting to get pretty close to the same POI, and might be a big part of what I was doing 'wrong'. Granted those are also much fewer rounds per group, but I had bruised up my shoulder nice and good at swordfighting yesterday, so it's all I felt like shooting...

Thanks again for all the suggestions; just figured I'd come back and report some results :)
 
c-fbmi said:
This is very common as most people, and I assume you, shoot from bags with no forend grip allowing the rifle to basically free recoil against the shoulder. I would recommend you change your "off the bags" shooting to include some of means of restraining your forend.
I personally shoot with my left hand over my scope, holding the rifle down. This may not give me the best possible groups but it does perfectly, give me the same POI when I'm shooting in the field and hunting situations.
Click to expand...

X2. I can't believe how many people sight their rifles in without touching the forend.
 
Kilo Charlie said:
X2. I can't believe how many people sight their rifles in without touching the forend.
Click to expand...

I never touch the forend when bench shooting. I end up with fliers in all firearms. Shooting off hand I also do not touch forend but support the rifle at mag well and trigger guard. If I do my part and follow through and held well, point of aim is at same place as prone and kneeling with hunting rifles. This is always a different poi as off the bench. some guns are pronounced and some are very close to same poi depending on recoil of rifle as far as I can tell. Shooting match rifle sling in kneeling and prone my standing if I hold well is usually in the 9 ring high. I love to shoot at a 21" steel ram at 500M off hand wouldn't shoot at a live one at 150..... Long story short....bench is a great place to sort out gear and trigger issues, no place to sort out aim and hold issues.
 
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