SKS 4 gun / 5 ammo test

RUPZUK

RUPZUK

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For what it's worth , I like the SKS rifle . But for the sake of curiousity and a fun day at the range I thought comparing a few rifles with a few shooters with a bunch of different ammo could be enlightening . I was hoping to prove that a few simple modifications would tighten up some groups . that or kind of a mythbusters thing . Unfortunately I underestimated the amount of time and targets required so the shooters shrunk to two from three , with four variations of SKS . All were Chinese , unfortunately no Russians were available . This is some of what I learned .
Acuracy is random chance . The chances the rifle can be acurate are a variable . A new rifle with tolerances on the tight side will give you a fairly acurate SKS . Assessories and or trigger jobs may make the rifle " feel " better but they will not affect acuracy IMO .
The design of the SKS action doesn't promote acuracy . The bolt is poorly supported and add some wear ( or poor fitting ) on the rails and in the chamber and it's amazing it has the acuracy it has . The rifle just has to many moving parts that are poorly supported ( the bolt locking lug is at the back , the front is basically unsupported ) . A poorly fitted rifle , a thou of wear here and there adds up to a lot of slop . Couple this with gererally dirty burning ammo and rapid fire sessions it all but seals the deal .
Don't get me wrong , the SKS is still a great rifle , just don't expect to compete in a bench rest competition with it . after a day at the range I have come to these conclusions :

1) the newest SKS ( lowest round count ) has the probability to be the most acurate ,

2) Replacement open sights may give you a quicker follow up shot but are no more acurate than stock .

3) Stock selection is for personal preference only . It makes no difference in acuracy . Length of pull can be adjusted with recoil pads or inserts , so the main gain is looks .

4) If the rifle is tight ( low round count ) , the ammo selection is of no concern , its all the same .

5) Trigger jobs may " feel " better with less creep and a lighter /shorter pull but it doesn't affect acuracy . Unless you have a rifle with an abnormally rough or stiff one IMO .
- on a side note , after I had done my trigger job and was happy with it ( prior to these tests ) I came across a suggestion to cut 4 coils off the hammer spring . I trimmed three , DON'T DO IT . This just lead to more FTF events and never affected trigger pull significantly .

6) tree rifles were used in four versions .

A) Chinese SKS with pinned barrel and folding stock - low round count, fairly new .
average 3 round group = 1.58 " @ 50 yards
average 5 round group = 3.47 " @ 50 yards

B) Chinese SKS-D with Williams firesights and recoil pad/spacer .
average 3 round group = 2.78 " @ 50 yards
average 5 round group = 4.61 " @ 50 yards

C) Chinese SKS with threaded barrel , Williams firesights and ATI Dragonov stock . Approx 3000 round count .
average 3 round group = 1.8" @ 50 yards
average 5 round group = 4.17" @ 50 yards

D) Rifle C) but with a modified trigger assembly .
average 3 round group = 1.97" @ 50 yards
average 5 round group = 4.46" @ 50 yards

7) Of 200 rounds fired from 5 different suppliers there were 14 FTF events .
The ammo used was : Norinco silver box , Unnamed Chinese commercial soft tip ( old lever arms ) , MFS , Marstar and Canada Ammo .
MFS had 1 FTF
Canada Ammo had 2 FTF
Marstar had 11 FTF ( out of a total of 40 rounds )
All FTF rounds fired on second attempt .

8) The best 3 round group was rifle B , MFS ammo , 1/2" @ 50 yards .
The best 5 round group was rifle D , Norinco ammo , 2 1/4" @ 50 yards .
IMO these were random chance .

I believe the differences between rifles C & D are due to the fact that the stock trigger group was much tight to install and created a tighter stock/ reciever fit . Currently I'm still waiting for the Wolff trigger spring kit to do further testing , I may also try a recoil buffer .
IMO the best acuracy improvements would come from a tightly fitted rifle
( new ) and handloading with fireformed brass . THESE WERE MY TEST RESULTS , YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY .:eek:
 
Rick,
Nice info. Thanks for doing all of that. Now if someone could do the same test with four VZ858's just for the sake of it.....:)

PS. Rick, I think "you need to get a VZ858". C'mon CGN'ers, if we all say it enough times to Rick he'll get hypnopized and start to believe it and he'll get one.:)
 
Rick, you are getting sleepy.....very sleepy.....just follow the pendulum....yes........sleepy.....now close your eyes........ picture a VZ58......envision yourself holding one......shooting one.......owning one.......yes......
 
Hi Rick,

The conclusions you drew over the weekend were very similar to mine, even though my experience was only derived from 1 rifle. I'm sorry to hear that trimming the mainspring didn't work out for you. I was using Czech surplus (1200 rnd case on strippers) and still only experienced about 3% FTF, which is no different than the rate before trimming. I think I may get a set of dies and give that a go.
 
I'd love to play with a 858 , but I don't want to pay for it :p
I already got a M305 , That project already shows more promise and I've only added a USGI stock . :D
I'll keep the SKS for when I feel the need to just blaze away , I'd rather waste ammo on this one for that . :eek:
What I would like to see would be a side by side comparison of the CQ311 to the CZ858 & CZ858-2 . :cool:
They are fairly close in price and cool factor , it would make intresting reading I'm thinking .:)
 
Rick - nice job - as with some results I posted here a while back - those 5 shot groups really seem to open up with the rifles. I had a number of loads where there were three or four in a tight cluster, and then there would be one quite a bit out of the group.

Thanks!
 
Ricky,
You need a Yugo (not the car) and an 858. If you have all that, in addition to what you have already, you'll be so happy you'll wake up giggling every morning.:)
Trust us, Rick, trust us. :rolleyes:
 
Hey Stiener , I used to own a Skoda , does that count ? :D
Best anti theft device I ever owned . :eek:
The Yugo 59/66 sounds better , a CZ858 looks the part but I'm a little smitten with my M305 .:)
 
Rick,
My friend had s Skoda also! Bright orange, rear engine, lots of electrical problems. 'Shkoda' in most slavic languages means 'trouble' - how fitting a name. I got an M305 also but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I like my SKS as it seems accurate and cheap to shoot. I won't sell it. A Yugo SKS test would be good. Maybe someone else might do that for us. Ricky.....as you read you are getting sleepy .....more sleepy......chanting....must have 858 .....858....858.....:)
 
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Rick, your test is laudable but I'm afraid I disagree with many of your statements. Mostly my comments refer to rifles in general but some are specific to the SKS of which I have personally owned 5 or 6.

1) the newest SKS ( lowest round count ) has the probability to be the most acurate
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No. Many rifles need a break-in period to achieve maximum accuracy, this is especially a true of rifles like the sks which have roughly machined surfaces and will smooth out over time.

2) Replacement open sights may give you a quicker follow up shot but are no more acurate than stock .
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In my personal experience the use of a peep sight ( specifically the Tech2000) greatly enhanced the accuracy of the SKS. Perhaps partly due to the sight design, which allowed for a very tight fit and partly due to the longer sight radius.

3) Stock selection is for personal preference only . It makes no difference in acuracy.
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Wrong. In the real world synthetic stocks are inherently more accurate than wood, period. Unless you are shooting in a hyperbaric chamber then humidity and temperature will vary causing minor but important dimensional changes in the wood. Additionally the SKS uses a "crush" fit between the trigger group, stock and reciever. Over time this will compress wood and loosen the fit of the stock. Niether of these concerns are a real issue with synthetic stocks.

4) ..the ammo selection is of no concern , its all the same .
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This is also plain wrong. After extensive experience with many brands and lots of ammo, virtually all shooters notice that different ammunition will have different accuracy potential. This is true of the SKS as well. This difference may not be noticeable at 50 yards but it will certainly be evident at 100 or 200.

5) Trigger jobs may " feel " better with less creep and a lighter /shorter pull but it doesn't affect acuracy .
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Again this one is just plain silly, any rifleman knows that a good trigger is key to accuracy. I suppose it could be argued that a good trigger helps the shooter shoot better rather than the rifle shoot better but that's just semantics. Next time you're at the range I dare you to tell a target shooter that a creepy, heavy trigger doesn't effect accuracy. You'll likely be treated like you're a semi retarded distant relative who just farted really loudly at the dinner table. The usual trigger on an SKS is atrocious but it is relatively easy to fix. There is a gunsmithing video available on the net that shows how to do it at home with an Arkansas stone in about 10min.


Overall the SKS has a lot of potential for accuracy improvement for the competent owner who is not afraid to tinker and use the right accessories.
 
2) Replacement open sights may give you a quicker follow up shot but are no more acurate than stock .

In my personal experience the use of a peep sight ( specifically the Tech2000) greatly enhanced the accuracy of the SKS. Perhaps partly due to the sight design, which allowed for a very tight fit and partly due to the longer sight radius.
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Peep sights (or a scope for that matter) don't make a rifle more accurate....
It may let you get a better sight picture, or see the target more clearly, but has zip-all to do with accuracy.
If you are shooting off a rest, have eyes, and know how to shoot properly, there won't be any difference in your groups (100m for eg.) whether using notch/post, aperture/diopter, or a scope.

3) Stock selection is for personal preference only . It makes no difference in acuracy.

Wrong. In the real world synthetic stocks are inherently more accurate than wood, period. Unless you are shooting in a hyperbaric chamber then humidity and temperature will vary causing minor but important dimensional changes in the wood. Additionally the SKS uses a "crush" fit between the trigger group, stock and reciever. Over time this will compress wood and loosen the fit of the stock. Niether of these concerns are a real issue with synthetic stocks.
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Quality synthetic stocks are solid, and won't warp due to heat or humidity. SKS sythetic stocks are garbage made out of recycled margerine containers........
Laminate wood stocks, or a well protected traditional wood stock will be just as solid and weather resistant as any synthetic. Lots of laminates in the benchrest circles BTW.....

Overall the SKS has a lot of potential for accuracy improvement for the competent owner who is not afraid to tinker and use the right accessories.
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The SKS is what it is, a simple, mass produced firearm to arm poor peasants when sending them off to get killed.
Doing any mods to one is flushing your money down the drink. Buy ammo instead and just have fun with it.
 
ollie said:
I would love to see a side by side of the CQ311 and VZ858...please?!
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I had a CQ311 and a VZ58.....
The CQ is probably the best made nork out there. No comparision in accuracy IMHO, the AR platform rules.......even when cloned by commies.:D
I was turning in 2-3" groups routinely with it with 55g ball. I could barely keep 5 rounds on an 10x12 target with the VZ off the bench.
 
Peep sights (or a scope for that matter) don't make a rifle more accurate....It may let you get a better sight picture, or see the target more clearly, but has zip-all to do with accuracy.
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Semantics, whether it makes you shoot better or the rifle is irrelevant, it helps put the little bullety things closer togather where they hit..

Quality synthetic stocks are solid, and won't warp due to heat or humidity. SKS sythetic stocks are garbage made out of recycled margerine containers........
Laminate wood stocks, or a well protected traditional wood stock will be just as solid and weather resistant as any synthetic. Lots of laminates in the benchrest circles BTW.....
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I don't disagree with laminate stocks being virtually as good as synthetic in many ways, however they are heavier and were talking about the SKS. How many laminated stocks have you seen? Any synthetic beats the factory chinese wood.

Doing any mods to one is flushing your money down the drink.
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Not in my experience. A synthetic stock, peep sight and trigger job costs less than $200 and provides a major gain in handling and accuracy. Total cost with base rifle is still about 1/2 that of a VZ; that saving could equal alot of ammo.
 
Thanks Hitzy , I was wondering about the CZ vs CQ .
Leonidas , if you read my info the wood stocked rifle was the least acurate , You possibly may have something there , but I'm not convinced . I didn't do a wood / synthetic shoot off side by side . Have you done a side by side ( at the same time , same ammo ) comparison ?I'd like to know exactly how it turned out . I agree that for a little time/money the handling of the rifle can be bettered but I just could not prove the argument for accuracy . Also 50 yards was showing a large enough group to find results with half the walking .
Like I said , your milage may vary .
 
Rick I recently put a synthetic stock on my girlfriends SKS her groups shrunk from 4-5" to about 2" (at 100 yards) but as she switched to a peep sight at the same time I couldn't say for sure it was one or the other, or a combination of sights and stock that made the improvement. FWIW it seemed that the Hungarian ammo was much better that the Czech corrosive stuff accuracy wise.
cheers
 
Just to continue this debate , I agree , you don't know which alteration aided the improvement . Take off the sights , fire some rounds and then reinstall the sights . I would like to know which modification helped . As for a SKS rifle doing a five round group in 2" I'd love to see a picture of it and possibly some words from a few witnesses .
What can she do with an AR ? ( or M14 )
What type and country of manufacture was it ? and how many rounds though it ?
Thanks - Rick
 
I actually found that adding a Choate stock made for tighter groups. I know that withe the right shims and fitting, it made everything real tight and solid.

Did that affect accuracy? Hard to say. Maybe I just had a better time shooting with something more comfortable and a longer length of pull.
 
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