Slick Mosin bolts

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Posted here b/c the Red Rifles group is apparently on vacation... :p

The "best" explanation I've heard for the stickiness of Mosin Nagant rifle bolts is that, like the Nagant revolvers, the Russian "refurbishment" process made things a lot gummier than when the firearms first left the production line... :yingyang:


(1) Any agreement/dissent/details as to this theory?

(2) Did the refurbishment process involve additional heat-treatment(s)?

(3) Is/was the "demon cosmoline" and/or the sinful shellac (at least in-part) to blame, some way, some how?



Anyhow, thanks in advance... :cheers:
 
Do you watch C&Rsenal on the youtubes?

They did a show on the M91 and go over the design choices and why they end up being a functional, but not particularly refined, bolt action.
 
Mark-II said:
Do you watch C&Rsenal on the youtubes?

They did a show on the M91 and go over the design choices and why they end up being a functional, but not particularly refined, bolt action.
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Yes, watched the Mosin episode, but still unclear why some Mosin bolts are slick to the point of "sliding into the chamber themselves" (like the Krag bolt is storied to do) while other Mosin bolts seem gummy as all get-out... :yingyang:
 
My M38 bolt is the second slickest bolt I have next to my K98k I was actually quite impressed. My guess is that sticky Mosin bolts are either due to rushed and poor machine tolerances or people not cleaning their guns thoroughly.

I bought a No.4 Mk.1 once where the bolt took considerable effort to open and was wondering what all the talk was with smooth enfield actions. Took it home and cleaned the heck out of the bolt and bolt channel. After a couple hours of cleaning it became silky smooth. My guess is dried grease or something was causing the bolt to drag
 
Probably little column A, little column B. I don't think I have a Mosin bolt that doesn't feature stamps from random arsenals and eras - I doubt that any 2 parts stayed with the same bolt from manufacture through to refurbishment.

And yet the Finnish rebuilt rifles, renowned for being mixmasters, seem a step above the Soviet average for fit and function.
 
Mosins just inherently have a poor bolt design. A lot of the 'smoothness' has to do with the amount of spring tension inside the bolt. I don't think there is some magical, non-refurbished rifles having smoother bolts thing going on, I simply believe that depending on each individual bolt and rifle it will have a different result. Some of the Mosins I have owned the bolts were absolutely terrible, others the bolts were relatively smooth, but still not comparable to basically any other well machined bolt action. Certainly not comparable to a Krag.

If they haven't cleaned the cosmoline out properly that will obviously have a effect but excluding that, I blame the design itself more than anything, if it was the quality of manufacture I suspect that the Chatellerault or American Mosins would have the nicest bolts but that doesn't seem to be the case or a lot of people would be claiming this. If it was being non-refurbished there is tons of examples out there which also don't claim to have the smoothest bolts as well.
 
The standard Mosin straight bolt handle is quite short. The bent bolt of the PU Sniper is quite a bit longer (measured from knob to center of bolt body) and gives more leverage and much lighter operation. Among my standard M91 and 91/30 Mosins I notice a wide variation in force required to open the bolt, with some being decent and others very stiff. I wonder if some just need a few hundred cycles to break them in as I have a few that appear to have been hardly used after manufacture or refurbishment. I find the same variation amongst my Finn rifles and don't think they found an answer to the problem. I also marvel at the smoothness of my Krag but such smoothness is only possible because of the lower power round it is designed for.

milsurpo
 
MattE93 said:
My M38 bolt is the second slickest bolt I have next to my K98k I was actually quite impressed.....
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At the risk of offending, I'll readily state that most "Model 98 style" milsurp Mausers I've handled have had wobbly/klunky bolt-throws; I can't wrap my head around that being solely due to cocking-on-opening.... :yingyang:
 
I found on my Mosin, the locking area at the chamber had cosmoline caked and when heated was sticking the bolt real bad. A ton of slow cleaning and now she slips in and out.
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
See dis.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinCleaning.htm#Sticky

Nothing wrong with the design of the MN action. They are easy to slick up and & dead reliable rifles when set up proper.;)
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It is one of the least reliable main issue bolt action designs out there. That interrupter system is garbage, as well as other issues that can arise due to poor design (such as having one in the chamber and attempting to chamber another round, other designs have been pulled out of service in the same time period due to the same problem). Not enough leverage with the short bolt handle, poor gas venting, crappy charger system, etc.

If it wasn't for the fact it was partially designed by a Russian it likely wouldn't have been adopted, and if the trials had been 8 years later I am sure it 100% would not have been. It is a relic of a design which was only kept in service due to the fact there was plenty of them, and then it was forced on other countries. The biggest advantage it really has is the speed it can be manufactured.

That all being said they tend to be very accurate rifles, and they are fun to use. They just simply aren't the best system of the era and if countries could adopt anything else during that era they tended to do so.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
. The biggest advantage it really has is the speed it can be manufactured.
.
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That is a mighty big advantage during wartime, probably more than offsetting the negatives. A spin-off of that is the ability to easily produce an excellent sniper rifle conversion. During just 1943 more than 200,000 PU's were produced at the two factories. Contrast that with the totals of US 03/A4's or British No. 4 Mk I T's produced. The Germans also failed to come up with a sniper system easily producible in quantity.

milsurpo
 
milsurpo said:
That is a mighty big advantage during wartime, probably more than offsetting the negatives. A spin-off of that is the ability to easily produce an excellent sniper rifle conversion. During just 1943 more than 200,000 PU's were produced at the two factories. Contrast that with the totals of US 03/A4's or British No. 4 Mk I T's produced. The Germans also failed to come up with a sniper system easily producible in quantity.

milsurpo
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Any rifle is better than no rifle, still doesn't mean its a rifle I would want to be issued. Pretty much anything else adopted by other nations as their main issued rifle I would rather have.
 
If the rifle has all cosmoline removed the only thing making the bolt on your Mosin more difficult to operate with use is poor tolerances and heat. Like anything a rifle that has seen some use will also wear smooth. Even new firearms that has supposedly nice bolts come rather sticky and difficult to operate until broken in. With some time and practise the Mosin bolt can be operated quite quickly though within its design limitation.

If you are wondering about cosmoline, break down your rifle get some mineral spirits, tooth brush and a spray bottle and clean out your action, triger mechanism, magazine and break down the bolt and clean it in detail. Wipe everything down and oil up an reassemble. The rifle should operate as best as its going to from then on.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
It is one of the least reliable main issue bolt action designs out there. That interrupter system is garbage, as well as other issues that can arise due to poor design (such as having one in the chamber and attempting to chamber another round, other designs have been pulled out of service in the same time period due to the same problem). Not enough leverage with the short bolt handle, poor gas venting, crappy charger system, etc.

If it wasn't for the fact it was partially designed by a Russian it likely wouldn't have been adopted, and if the trials had been 8 years later I am sure it 100% would not have been. It is a relic of a design which was only kept in service due to the fact there was plenty of them, and then it was forced on other countries. The biggest advantage it really has is the speed it can be manufactured.

That all being said they tend to be very accurate rifles, and they are fun to use. They just simply aren't the best system of the era and if countries could adopt anything else during that era they tended to do so.
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That's funny stuff right there.

Accurate? Yes, in a well sorted rifle. Reliable? Yes, with a well maintained rifle. The short bolt handle leverage issue? Ain't the best setup fer ease of operation,
but could've easily been corrected back in the day by using the sniper type bolt handle. Proper training of troops in the art of war goes a long way to aid in
making it through the chaos.

The Lee Enfield of course was better for the job in battle situations overall, but I'd never poo-poo the MN. The MN made for a better platform than the LE in
Olympic competition and hunting applications in the post war era though. The Finns, Poles, Russians & Czechs made beauty rifles on the NM platform.

I love both LE's & MN's. They stand the test of time well.
 
I would also add the interrupter is much better than the rim lock issues you can get with LE. Never had a jam in Mosin M38, can’t say the same of the Lee enfield style feed mechanism.
 
MattE93 said:
I would also add the interrupter is much better than the rim lock issues you can get with LE. Never had a jam in Mosin M38, can’t say the same of the Lee enfield style feed mechanism.
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The rim lock issue, isn't so much an action related issue as a modern ammunition manufacturers can't be bothered to correctly chamfer the rim on .303 British cartridges which can lead to rim jams.

Even if you do end up with a rim jam, you can clear it with relative ease:

1. Push the rounds down into the mag and release sharply. 2. Tap the bottom of the magazine.

If either fails to clear the issue, it may be the feed lips aren't adjusted properly or you had an improperly loaded charger. Of course, there's always the tried and true work the bolt "militarily" and force the issue to resolve itself.
 
While I agree the problem is fairly easily remedied. I wouldn’t want to be trying to figure out how to unjam a rifle I’m combat. I like the solution employed by the Russian. Eliminating any potential for a feed related jam
 
I've never seen any reference to a Lee-Enfield jam in anything I've read, on the other hand it's a favourite "feature" of the modern Mausers are king groups. :nest:

Mind you, if there's mention of jams in the Small Arms Training pamphlets it may have been possible. Although they mention it's generally due to soldiers more than anything else.
 
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