Slow smokeless loads in .44 russian

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gyppo

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*Edited - updated with range report page 2*

Hi guys, I posted in the sticky originally but it doesn't look like it gets read very often. So I'll start a new thread.

I have a S&W DA coming soon and I want to develop a smokeless load for it. I shoot a bit of BP - maybe 1-2lbs a year, in my .45-70 and coach gun. I'm aware of pros and cons which is why I'd like a smokeless load. While researching this I came across many forum users who recommend only BP or Pyrodex in the antique Smiths, but I'm intrigued by some talk on here of using smokeless powders that are slower than BP, and the idea of getting BP ballistics with less pressure (and clean-up) appeals to me.

I have loaded some cut down .44 magnum cases with 3F goex and will try them out first. On the advice of a fellow CGNer (Thanks for the PM and Webley data Jethunter) I tried seating the bullets out to the first grease groove which allows space for a slightly compressed 20 grains of 3F. This would presumably still be below spec but I really don't see 23 grains happening without a balloon head case. I compressed the loads I assembled about 2-3mm. The bullet I'm using is the Lee 429-200-r3 which actually comes in at 215 grains for me out of 50/50 pure lead/wheel weights.

The next step as I see it would be to shoot these over a chrono and then work up a load with 2400, 5744 or 4759 (which are the powders I've seen mentioned) that matched the black powder ballistics, and I would have an equivalent load of lower pressure.

-The question is what charges to start with, and which is a better powder for the .44? I assume the slower powder will produce less pressure and wear so I'm inclined to go with 5744.

-I also have a bunch IMR 4227 which is right after Alliant 5744 in the Hornady 8th edition burn rate chart. Could I use that? Again, what would an appropriate starting load be?

Thanks guys,
Ben
 
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Lee reloading manual have several load data for 44 russian.
If you get 44 russian lee pistol 3 dies set it even come with load data for trail boss.

I use 3.4 grains of trail boss and 200 gr lead bullet loaded to 1.2525" OAL, the result is 550 fps +- 20 fps, primer is cci large pistol primer
 
If you use cut down 44 mag cases you may need to thin the inside of the case neck as 44 mag cases are supper thick walled that far down.
Buy some 44 Russian cases and use a 4.5 or 5 gr unique load thats a safe load in the S&W DAs a 200 or 220 to 240 gr LEAD bullet sized .430 is best.
I tryed the 44 mag case thing years ago the exta thick case walls caused the cases to buldge out when the bullet is seated and they would not chamber in the gun.
Theres a few CGN traders that sell 44 Russian brass. or track the wolf in the USA has it and ships to Canada.
 
4227 probably won't work well at all in low pressure, low velocity cartridges. Trailboss was specifically designed for reduced velocity loads. Hodgdon reloading data website lists a good selection of Trailboss 44 russian loads.

Those bullets you are making will be about perfect IMO. 50/50 ww & pure lead is what I use for making bullets for antique pistols as well.
 
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1fastjeep said:
Is there a list as to which black powder cartridge calibers are kosher?
Click to expand...

If you mean which are considered antique in Canada Look at the top of the forum Stickies CFC antique fire arms regs Click on the link Look for facts sheet and then antique fire arms the caliber list is there
 
Thanks Dingus, I've ordered some proper .44 russian brass. cutting .44 mag cases sucks anyway, I thought of doing it because I have a lot. The loaded cases do slide right into the chamber of my ranch hand so I though tit would work.

Do you know what velocities I should be looking for with 4.5 and 5 grains of Unique?

DEZ, what about your load with Blue Dot? starting velocity? Can this load safely be brought up to black powder velocities in an antique gun?

Jethunter - I've looked at the Hodgdon data but I assumed it's for reproductions. Some of the 240 grain loads are pushing 375 foot-pounds! These seem way too hot for an antique revolver. Would the starting loads be ok to use in antiques? the starting load with HP-38 pushes 240 grains at 750fps, which is right about an original load. 8900CUP.

Still no one for loads with 5744, 2400 or 4759?

Thanks for the replies.

B
 
Glad you figgered that out you do not need a firearms licence to buy Brass or lead bullets i dont think you even need one for primers and powder.
I can not remember the exact FPS but them loads i mentioned are safe and under 800 Fps
I have and orignal Colt Bisley (pre 1898) and in 44 russian i could load them abit hotter but i wont as id not want one getting in a S&W DA by mistake.
I like to keep the loads in the S&W DAs under or at about 800 Fps Max.
I have boxes of Fiochhi 44 Russian thats supose to be 820 FPS and a member here pulled a case and theres only 5 grs of powder in them loads so im pretty sure there safe in the S&W DAs but i have not had the time to get to the range its 20KMs away and i just have not had the time to shoot and cronograph the loads.
If Fiochhi is listing them at 820FPS then there likely very close to that speed anyway and ok but i cant say that for sure.
 
DEZ said:
If you mean which are considered antique in Canada Look at the top of the forum Stickies CFC antique fire arms regs Click on the link Look for facts sheet and then antique fire arms the caliber list is there
Click to expand...
No I mean which of the caliber cases is not regulated on the US side, since dingus suggests track the wolf which is an US site ships 44 russian case to Canada.
 
gyppo said:
Thanks Dingus, I've ordered some proper .44 russian brass. cutting .44 mag cases sucks anyway, I thought of doing it because I have a lot. The loaded cases do slide right into the chamber of my ranch hand so I though tit would work.

Do you know what velocities I should be looking for with 4.5 and 5 grains of Unique?

DEZ, what about your load with Blue Dot? starting velocity? Can this load safely be brought up to black powder velocities in an antique gun?

Jethunter - I've looked at the Hodgdon data but I assumed it's for reproductions. Some of the 240 grain loads are pushing 375 foot-pounds! These seem way too hot for an antique revolver. Would the starting loads be ok to use in antiques? the starting load with HP-38 pushes 240 grains at 750fps, which is right about an original load. 8900CUP.

Still no one for loads with 5744, 2400 or 4759?

Thanks for the replies.

B
Click to expand...

I was referring specifically to the Trailboss loads since you are looking for reduced velocity loads, however Hodgdon's loads for the 44 russian do not exceed te SAAMI maximum and they are designed to be safe in firearms originally chambered for 44 russian that are in good condition.

12-14K psi is the safe pressure max in most of the antique cartridges - 44 russian, 455 webley, etc. You can use those loads in antique revolvers that in good condition. Look at the pressure, not the energy. 44 russian and similar cartridges are limited to low SAAMI maximum pressures specifically because there are lots of old guns chambered for them.
 
If 14K psi will be your pressure limit, you need to be aware that those pressures can generally only be reliably produced using fast pistol powders. Slower powders are designed to operate at higher pressures, and reduced loads can result in a "squib" load or otherwise unpredictable results - that's one probable reason why you don't see published loads for them.

If others don't have loads to share, or aren't inclined to share, you'll need to do your own load development. If you don't have a chrony, it's a non-starter.

In my experience, 5744, 2400, SR4759 and H4227 can all operate reliably at 14K psi, but for at least H4227, that's the low-end. IMO, bets are off for those four powders at 8K psi.

- Establish a max MV for your gun-brass-bullet combination with a max published load (i.e. a "baseline" load) using one of the fast powders (e.g. Trail Boss or Titegroup);
- use that max load as your starting load for one of the above powders; and
- work up incrementally with that powder until the MV matches that of the "baseline" load. Be aware that some loads could be "squib", so ensure that the previous bullet left the bore before trying the next load.

The result will be a load that produces less pressure than your baseline. You could continue to add powder (and MV) to some point, but without pressure-testing equipment it's guess-work how much more. In pistol cartridges, even 0.5 grs can result in a 10% increase in pressure, so care is indicated.
 
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Glad you started this thread, I have 3 S&W .44 russians 2 D/A and 1 S/A, I have most of the gear to reload now and will be starting in the near future. I haven't shot them yet and probably won't shoot the S/A, it is a collectors grade gun for sure. Anyway I bought a couple boxes of Black hills .44 russian Ammo, to shoot while I was waiting for double tap to get my order in, (10 months now) I think he forgot about me,so I will cancel that and order elsewhere.
The wording on the box of .44 russian say only use in modern guns meant for smokeless powder!! I hadn't read that before you guys started talking about it. I am going on line now to try and find out more about this ammo. I don't want to ruin my guns or my hands/eyes. Has anyone used this ammo?
Cheers Bob
Update; the .44 russian are 210 gr fpl , and one seller in the U.S. says the MV is 650 fps.
A couple blog sites so far seem to say these are ok for antique S&W I have not found a max cup for them yet, I Just talked to Mike at Black hills and he said the highest pressure he found was 11500, and also said that the antique .44 russians handguns were designed for black powder and does not recomend using modern smokeless rounds in them, although they try to duplicate the original round to the best of their ability!
 
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Thanks for all the replies, this has been very helpful. I picked up my gun last night and have tried some cut down Starline.44 special brass which chambers fine although I have Russian brass on the way. Some of the cut down .44 mag chambers some doesn't. It looks like I have enough information to experiment with lots of loads and I'm sure I'll find something that works. I'll report back when I get a chance to go to the range.

Thanks again.

B
 
I shot the gun today with black powder and Hodgdon Universal, which is the only other powder from my data that I could get.

Starline .44 russian brass for all loads.

Original load of 23 grains of Goex FFFG, slightly compressed, 215 grain Lee round nose flat point bullet 50/50 pure lead/wheel weights, bullet seated as far out as I was comfortable (about 5mm in the case). 701fps average, low 699, high 703. Very consistent. More recoil than anticipated! Clean-up is very easy and very quick since the whole revolver fits in the sink, It's much easier to clean than I thought. I may just end up shooting BP at the range, with smokeless when I go hiking.
I still find it interesting that the original loading using the same amount of powder achieved 770fps with a 246 grain bullet!

4 grains Universal, same bullet, same OAL, average velocity 487fps, low 461 high 531. Lots of unburned powder. off hand 4" group at 10m, 5 shots. Good minute of stump hiking accuracy :)

4.2 grains Universal, same setup, average 519fps, low 467, high 531. Still lots of unburnt powder.

Next up I will try 4.4 and 4.6 grains Universal with the same OAL as well as 4 grains with shorter OAL to see if crimping in the proper groove gives better ignition.

I'll add more next range session. Note: I shot smokeless loads before the BP of course...

B
 
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