SMLE No1 Mk3: Stocks
- Thread starter Demonical
- Start date
There are differences between the forestocks of the Mark III and the Mark III*, but that's about all. The Mark III stock had inletting for the Magazine Cutoff, the Mark III* did not. Handguards were identical, as were butts....and the forestocks were close enough to interchange when necessary.
ALSO, about the same time as the transition between Mark III and Mark III* (about the middle of 1916, although some earlier, even some in late 1915) the Volley Sights were dropped, although the distinctive "bulge" on the stock did not disappear all at once but rather as pre-cut timber was used up.
So the MAJORITY of First World War stocks did not have the drop for the Cutoff, nor did they have the bulge for the Volley Sights.
Volley Sights and Cutoffs being dropped for WW2 production, these stocks would agree with a late-War-One rifle and vice versa.
THEN we must consider Australian production, rather a law unto itself. Although Australia built Mark III and Mark III* rifles during the Great War, they reverted to the Mark III after that conflict and continued making it through the early part of the Second War. It was not until Australia REALLY got things humming, about 1943, that they finally got rid of the last vestiges of the old Mark III and built "pure" Mark III*s. Still, that Slazenger wood is awfully nice.....
The Mark III and Mark III* also both were built at ISHAPORE, which continues to make woodwork for the Mark III* to this day... although they won't sell it to mere human beings, only to Governments. Perhaps they, or their opposition at POF in Wah Cantt can be persuaded to recognise the colour of hard cash and let us have some woodwork for our antiques.
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ALSO, about the same time as the transition between Mark III and Mark III* (about the middle of 1916, although some earlier, even some in late 1915) the Volley Sights were dropped, although the distinctive "bulge" on the stock did not disappear all at once but rather as pre-cut timber was used up.
So the MAJORITY of First World War stocks did not have the drop for the Cutoff, nor did they have the bulge for the Volley Sights.
Volley Sights and Cutoffs being dropped for WW2 production, these stocks would agree with a late-War-One rifle and vice versa.
THEN we must consider Australian production, rather a law unto itself. Although Australia built Mark III and Mark III* rifles during the Great War, they reverted to the Mark III after that conflict and continued making it through the early part of the Second War. It was not until Australia REALLY got things humming, about 1943, that they finally got rid of the last vestiges of the old Mark III and built "pure" Mark III*s. Still, that Slazenger wood is awfully nice.....
The Mark III and Mark III* also both were built at ISHAPORE, which continues to make woodwork for the Mark III* to this day... although they won't sell it to mere human beings, only to Governments. Perhaps they, or their opposition at POF in Wah Cantt can be persuaded to recognise the colour of hard cash and let us have some woodwork for our antiques.
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My 1940 bsa has the magazine cut off and the stock has the inlet for it.
For the heck out it, I swapped the stock from my mk iii* with my 1940 temporarily a while back and it fit perfectly.
As smellie has already mentioned, I noticed no other differences when compared to my 1916 mk iii*.
For the heck out it, I swapped the stock from my mk iii* with my 1940 temporarily a while back and it fit perfectly.
As smellie has already mentioned, I noticed no other differences when compared to my 1916 mk iii*.
@Nabs; then your 1940 BSA is one of the first made for the Army in War Two. In peacetime, BSA reverted to the Mark III because that was the official pattern, the Mark III* being a wartime expedient. They made a few rifles, slowly, for the Trade, and that was about all, but they kept that whole factory tooled up and staff trained, for 20 years, at their own expense. When the War broke out, BSA made representations to the Gummint and were turned down flat, basically told to go fly a kite. After the disaster at Dunkirk, BSA tried again. The Army, by then, was in a panic. The result was an order for every SMLE III* which could be made, RIGHT NOW if not sooner and BSA was given orders to get build Shirley and get it running (also right now) and make the Boys Rifle (right now) and build Oerlikons by the zillion (also right now) and everything else which he Government had been too parsimonious to make in the previous 10 years... all of it right now.
More than any other single Company, BSA saved Britain's butt in World War Two.
Following the War, the Government allowed Japanese imports to crowd BSA from its own motorcycle market, destroy their international business and even copy their ads as increasing "gun control" destroyed their firearms business. Finally, in the early 1970s, BSA needed a loan of 1 million Pounds for a period of ONE year, for retooling at Small Heath. The Labour Government (equivalent to NDP) said that they were "capitalists" and let the Company go broke. BSA closed, Small Heath plants demolished and a chapter of history closed forever. Oh, and the Workers went on the Dole. Typical Socialism!
Your 1940 with Mark III wood and work is from a very desperate time indeed.
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More than any other single Company, BSA saved Britain's butt in World War Two.
Following the War, the Government allowed Japanese imports to crowd BSA from its own motorcycle market, destroy their international business and even copy their ads as increasing "gun control" destroyed their firearms business. Finally, in the early 1970s, BSA needed a loan of 1 million Pounds for a period of ONE year, for retooling at Small Heath. The Labour Government (equivalent to NDP) said that they were "capitalists" and let the Company go broke. BSA closed, Small Heath plants demolished and a chapter of history closed forever. Oh, and the Workers went on the Dole. Typical Socialism!
Your 1940 with Mark III wood and work is from a very desperate time indeed.
.
@Smellie
You are bang on, the 1940 BSA I have has the BSA commercial logo on the top of the knox form, the barrel is dated 1940. The "40" part of 1940 on the receiver side looks like it was added well after the receiver was made. Perhaps it was sitting around at BSA ? The parts are mis-matched and it looks like she has been through quite a bit, I am wondering if BSA put together SMLEs from whatever parts were available ?
I am currently in the process of restoring her to complete military configuration.
You are bang on, the 1940 BSA I have has the BSA commercial logo on the top of the knox form, the barrel is dated 1940. The "40" part of 1940 on the receiver side looks like it was added well after the receiver was made. Perhaps it was sitting around at BSA ? The parts are mis-matched and it looks like she has been through quite a bit, I am wondering if BSA put together SMLEs from whatever parts were available ?
I am currently in the process of restoring her to complete military configuration.
Nabs....you knew this was coming right!?
I figured it was up coming 
.
Well here are some pictures (sorry for potentially hi-jacking the thread).
The butt stock has some interesting markings. I think the rack number was "139", there is a sold out of service marking (opposed broad arrows, right ?) and a "C C" marking on top which I think is linked to a Cadet corps ?
If you guys notice something I missed, I'm eager to hear anything new about this SMLE.
.Well here are some pictures (sorry for potentially hi-jacking the thread).
The butt stock has some interesting markings. I think the rack number was "139", there is a sold out of service marking (opposed broad arrows, right ?) and a "C C" marking on top which I think is linked to a Cadet corps ?
If you guys notice something I missed, I'm eager to hear anything new about this SMLE.
Oh my! That is a very pretty old girl indeed!
Small Cone (chamber).
Sold Out of Service legally, too.
Yes, the "40" part of "1940" was marked independently.
What BSA did between the Wars was keep the plant tooled up and halfway into mothballs. Every tool was greased or oiled or whatever and tooling was checked periodically to ensure that it still worked properly. That took care of the PLANT.
But the OTHER part of rifle production is the STAFF and BSA had been forced to lay off a lot of men at the end of the Great War. They kept as many as possible at work in the motorcycle plant, especially the critical staff members from the rifle plant but, over a period of 20 years, that work force AGED. Men who were 20 became 40, men who were 30 became 50...... and men who were already 50 became 70..... and were retired, taking their former skills permanently OFF the job market.
To mitigate this circumstance, whenever an employee from a critical part of the plant was due to retire, BSA would start up his part of the rifle plant long enough for him to train several younger men precisely how to do his job. Then that part of the plant was shut down again. This would have been exactly the same for the forging shop, barrel-rolling, rifling, reaming, the woodworking shop.... every part of the rifle factory you could imagine.
Take a VERY close and careful look at an SMLE some time. There are milling cuts in that thing which are damned HARD given the machine tools and the technology of 75 or 100 years ago. One excellent example is the channel for the locking lugs of the bolt. The upper lug (the rib) locks on the outside of the rifle, but the lower lug locks in the LEFT SIDE of the rifle but it TRAVELS in the BOTTOM of the rifle. To mill that channel requires a straight milling tool with a relatively long shaft..... and the whole thing must be a cutting tool.... and perfectly parallel at one and the same time. The Body (receiver) less the Bridge Charger Guide must travel against the stationery milling cutter as the top channel in the Body and the bottom channel in the bolt-way are machined. That's bad enough, but then the Body must be TURNED around an imaginary axis which passes along the centreline of the bore..... which does not exist yet. But it doesn't just TURN through its 80 degrees or whatever, it turns in TWO STEPS while continuing to move against the milling cutter. Only the final bit of the cut is done perpendicular to the (imaginary, so far) bore. THAT cut was one of the most difficult in the entire rifle AND it was utterly CRITICAL that it be done to perfection. Needless to say, BSA was most particular to be sure to have sufficient men available who could do THAT job.
Practices such as these would, as you can see, result in a pile of finished and semi-finished parts littering the plant from one end to the other, each part being moved a bit farther along the line when it came time to train new men to do the next job. As this practice continued for a period of some 20 years, during which thee were only TWO main foreign contracts totalling 32,000 rifles in all..... and NONE for England, it is easy to understand that when the PANNNNIC button was hit right after the SHTF button was mashed into subjection, they just might have some Bodies already finished, more partway along the line, others in the milling shop, some being Shaped, others in Forging and so forth. What history DOES record is that the plant was in FULL operation very nearly immediately after the orders were given. During that period of the War, BSA was not just the centre of British rifle production, it was ALL THERE WAS.
Nabs, it is entirely likely that your rifle's Body was turned out well before the War started, likely in 1938 (second Iraqi delivery), less likely in 1936 (first Iraqi delivery) and turned out to be surplus to the Iraqi contract, so was not dated nor completed into a rifle. When the SHTF button was mashed in 1940, it was ready or almost ready to be built into a rifle, so any finishing work would have been done, the thing punched with the date and then built, very quickly indeed, into a rifle, crated and delivered.
If there are recycled parts on your rifle, they likely would have been installed by the Army. I do not know if used spares were delivered from Enfield stocks to BSA or not, although it would seem practical. On the other hand, have you ever tried to tell anyone what is POSSIBLE.... when they don't want to listen? The Government demanded the impossible from BSA...... and then, somehow, they GOT IT.
And that is the miracle.
And your rifle is a part of it.
Hope this helps.
.
Small Cone (chamber).
Sold Out of Service legally, too.
Yes, the "40" part of "1940" was marked independently.
What BSA did between the Wars was keep the plant tooled up and halfway into mothballs. Every tool was greased or oiled or whatever and tooling was checked periodically to ensure that it still worked properly. That took care of the PLANT.
But the OTHER part of rifle production is the STAFF and BSA had been forced to lay off a lot of men at the end of the Great War. They kept as many as possible at work in the motorcycle plant, especially the critical staff members from the rifle plant but, over a period of 20 years, that work force AGED. Men who were 20 became 40, men who were 30 became 50...... and men who were already 50 became 70..... and were retired, taking their former skills permanently OFF the job market.
To mitigate this circumstance, whenever an employee from a critical part of the plant was due to retire, BSA would start up his part of the rifle plant long enough for him to train several younger men precisely how to do his job. Then that part of the plant was shut down again. This would have been exactly the same for the forging shop, barrel-rolling, rifling, reaming, the woodworking shop.... every part of the rifle factory you could imagine.
Take a VERY close and careful look at an SMLE some time. There are milling cuts in that thing which are damned HARD given the machine tools and the technology of 75 or 100 years ago. One excellent example is the channel for the locking lugs of the bolt. The upper lug (the rib) locks on the outside of the rifle, but the lower lug locks in the LEFT SIDE of the rifle but it TRAVELS in the BOTTOM of the rifle. To mill that channel requires a straight milling tool with a relatively long shaft..... and the whole thing must be a cutting tool.... and perfectly parallel at one and the same time. The Body (receiver) less the Bridge Charger Guide must travel against the stationery milling cutter as the top channel in the Body and the bottom channel in the bolt-way are machined. That's bad enough, but then the Body must be TURNED around an imaginary axis which passes along the centreline of the bore..... which does not exist yet. But it doesn't just TURN through its 80 degrees or whatever, it turns in TWO STEPS while continuing to move against the milling cutter. Only the final bit of the cut is done perpendicular to the (imaginary, so far) bore. THAT cut was one of the most difficult in the entire rifle AND it was utterly CRITICAL that it be done to perfection. Needless to say, BSA was most particular to be sure to have sufficient men available who could do THAT job.
Practices such as these would, as you can see, result in a pile of finished and semi-finished parts littering the plant from one end to the other, each part being moved a bit farther along the line when it came time to train new men to do the next job. As this practice continued for a period of some 20 years, during which thee were only TWO main foreign contracts totalling 32,000 rifles in all..... and NONE for England, it is easy to understand that when the PANNNNIC button was hit right after the SHTF button was mashed into subjection, they just might have some Bodies already finished, more partway along the line, others in the milling shop, some being Shaped, others in Forging and so forth. What history DOES record is that the plant was in FULL operation very nearly immediately after the orders were given. During that period of the War, BSA was not just the centre of British rifle production, it was ALL THERE WAS.
Nabs, it is entirely likely that your rifle's Body was turned out well before the War started, likely in 1938 (second Iraqi delivery), less likely in 1936 (first Iraqi delivery) and turned out to be surplus to the Iraqi contract, so was not dated nor completed into a rifle. When the SHTF button was mashed in 1940, it was ready or almost ready to be built into a rifle, so any finishing work would have been done, the thing punched with the date and then built, very quickly indeed, into a rifle, crated and delivered.
If there are recycled parts on your rifle, they likely would have been installed by the Army. I do not know if used spares were delivered from Enfield stocks to BSA or not, although it would seem practical. On the other hand, have you ever tried to tell anyone what is POSSIBLE.... when they don't want to listen? The Government demanded the impossible from BSA...... and then, somehow, they GOT IT.
And that is the miracle.
And your rifle is a part of it.
Hope this helps.
.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
BSA really has heavily influenced my life directly. Their four stroke motocross bikes in the early days of moto on this side of the ocean were very popular and helped propel the sport I've loved so much for all my life, pretty neat that they built so many Lee Enfield rifles that I enjoy shooting so much now. Thanks for the info Smellie! It hadn't occurred to me yet that BSA was BSA motorcycles.
Thank you very much for your thoughts and information, Smellie. She just isn't a run of the mill sporter anymore but a real piece of history during those dark days for Britain during WW2.
I am curious, would the serial on the receiver and barrel been applied during the Iraqi contract or during the 1940s production ? When would the sold out of service marking been applied as I can't imagine it was during WW2. Any thoughts on the "C C" marking and what it could mean ?
Restoration work is proceeding on her, she may be mis-matched but she has one beautifully smooth action and she has the best SMLE bore I have ever seen.
Thank you for your continued thoughts on the SMLE.
I am curious, would the serial on the receiver and barrel been applied during the Iraqi contract or during the 1940s production ? When would the sold out of service marking been applied as I can't imagine it was during WW2. Any thoughts on the "C C" marking and what it could mean ?
Restoration work is proceeding on her, she may be mis-matched but she has one beautifully smooth action and she has the best SMLE bore I have ever seen.
Thank you for your continued thoughts on the SMLE
.Here's another question about the rear stock; is there any difference in the rear stock between a Mk3 and a Mk4? Reason I ask is there's lots of rear stock pieces available for Mk4's. They don't look any different to me...
They are not the same - and a quick note on nomenclature, it's No1Mk3*, and No4.
The No4 has a couple of main variations; on one side, the No4Mk1 and No4Mk1*. On the other side, the No4Mk1/2, Mk1/3 and Mk2.
Lou
What's the "L" stampings under the proofing stamps about? I've never seen that before.
The Sale Mark likely would have been applied shortly after the end of the Second War, at a time when they still had a bunch of SMLEs in Service. Later, all of the SMLEs were sold off as the Number 4 continued in series production and the older rifle was phased out entirely. At that point, likely they just sold them all off to the Trade, which spent the next 30 years sportering the poor things. The purpose of the marking was to enable the authorities to differentiate between a legally-sold rifle and one which had been "borrowed" with nobody bothering to tell His Majesty about it.
The "L" is part of the serial number: L99216.
As to BUTTS, they are very close..... but no cigar in that they do NOT interchange. If you will settle for a small cigar, you can modify a Number 4 butt for a Number 1 or vice versa, but it is fair bit of work and you will know in your heart of hearts that it jes' hain't right.
I'm running away. Got to go and drag out a 1938 Iraqi for the serial.
Later.
Hope this helps.
.
The "L" is part of the serial number: L99216.
As to BUTTS, they are very close..... but no cigar in that they do NOT interchange. If you will settle for a small cigar, you can modify a Number 4 butt for a Number 1 or vice versa, but it is fair bit of work and you will know in your heart of hearts that it jes' hain't right.
I'm running away. Got to go and drag out a 1938 Iraqi for the serial.
Later.
Hope this helps.
.
