Smokeless Powders for the Old Winchester Levergun Cartridges

c-fbmi

c-fbmi

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I was plinking with my old Winchesters the other day and then went to process the empties. I found a lot of unburnt powder in amongst my 38-55 cases. I am not an experienced lead bullet loader by any means and took my load right from CotW using H4198, W-W cases, WLRP and Bullet Barn 255 gn .379 bullets.

There must be better powders than H4198 which obviously is not burning well or cleanly, I assume not enough pressure to make this powder work optimally. So my question to those of you who do a lot of loading for these old girls is...........which is the best powder for these cases........32-40, 38-55, 33 Win, 35 Win, 38-56, 38-72, 40-72, 40-82, 45-90 and the like............According to CotW 4198 works in most of these but I have had the same problem with my 45-90 as well, gobs of unburnt powder.

I do not wish to boost the pressure up as some of these old girls may not like it and may express their displeasure rather catastrophically. Is there a good powder or two that will burn and give good plinker loads with reasonable accuracy with these cartridges and lead bullet loads?
 
I find 4198 hard to get good burns until the pressure is higher. Generally it seems Reloder 7 is better, but that's a moot point since you can't find it anywhere. In some of my antique pistols I've been using Vihtavoury Tin Star. It burns pretty clean, and has a slower burn rate than Trail Boss. And is available from a number of places. I would think you would be able to get a workable load for 38-40 at least. You could also try Magnum primers with the 4198 to see if that helps.
 
Trail boss is designed for cowboy action with lead bullets in mind. It's very high volume for weight used. 12 grains half fills my 45-70
 
Best groups that I have gotten in .38-55 (2"-2.5"@ 100yds) have been with IMR 3031 & IMR 4895
Best group that I have gotten in .32-40 is 3 3/4" @ 100 yds using IMR 4198, and that was a light load. The heavier I loaded with 4198, the larger the groups got really large. I'm still on the look for the perfect load for my .32-40. I am not thrilled with 4198 period and only tried it due to a friends recommendation.
 
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c-fbmi said:
I was plinking with my old Winchesters the other day and then went to process the empties. I found a lot of unburnt powder in amongst my 38-55 cases. I am not an experienced lead bullet loader by any means and took my load right from CotW using H4198, W-W cases, WLRP and Bullet Barn 255 gn .379 bullets.

There must be better powders than H4198 which obviously is not burning well or cleanly, I assume not enough pressure to make this powder work optimally. So my question to those of you who do a lot of loading for these old girls is...........which is the best powder for these cases........32-40, 38-55, 33 Win, 35 Win, 38-56, 38-72, 40-72, 40-82, 45-90 and the like............According to CotW 4198 works in most of these but I have had the same problem with my 45-90 as well, gobs of unburnt powder.

I do not wish to boost the pressure up as some of these old girls may not like it and may express their displeasure rather catastrophically. Is there a good powder or two that will burn and give good plinker loads with reasonable accuracy with these cartridges and lead bullet loads?
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Where are you Kirk?
Bruce
 
If the accuracy is good with H4198, then the unburnt powder ("crinklers") that are left behind can be treated like any fouling. If you move to a slightly faster powder like AA5744 or SR4759 or 2400, there will be less in the way if crinklers left behind.
 
In my short pistol/rifle cartridges I have lots of Unique and it works excellent, so I have no issues there, it is with the longer higher capacity rifle cartridges where my problems lie. I do have a significant amount of RL 7 ( 4 or 5 lbs) if you think that is a better easier to light powder for lower pressures. There is almost no load data but CotW for my obsolete girls and all they show for many of them is 4198. I have done some research and it would appear as though I could swap straight across RL 7 for 4198 loads and be more than safe, as where it shows up it is either equal to or slightly more or in some cases quite a bit more for the RL 7. I was also wondering about IMR 3031 as I have had good success with light loads with it and it still seems to burn clean and completely.

Where is 38-55 ??????????????????????? HELP

I have most of the IMR and H powders, in this burn rate I have 4227, RL 15, IMR and H 4198, IMR 3031..........none of the reduced load powders I'm afraid.........Like I said don't want to blow 'em up but don't want Trail Boss powder puff loads either, looking to equal factory ballistics only.
 
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With my 38-55 I had years ago, The best load I found shooting cast lead was a 99 to 100% load of Hodgdon Pyrodex RS, it shot clover leafs at 100 yards off the bench. never did find a smokeless load that would match it out of my rifle.
From the hodgdon survivorlibrary.com
38-55, hodgdon RS/SELECT (this powder is measured by VOLUME NOT WEIGHT) USE A BLACK POWDER MEASURE not a scale! use a volume measure of 55gr, and a .030 wad( plastic milk carton works well), 250gr bullet, 1320ftps.
 
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Andy said:
If the accuracy is good with H4198, then the unburnt powder ("crinklers") that are left behind can be treated like any fouling. If you move to a slightly faster powder like AA5744 or SR4759 or 2400, there will be less in the way if crinklers left behind.
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Hey Andy..........the problem is the unburnt powder is being left in the chamber as well and then becoming tattooed on the next case, I just don't like it and it really bothers the OCD part of me.......
 
303EppsFan said:
I would recommend AA5744 if you can get it. It's not position sensitive and requires no fillers. It is designed for this type of loading.
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YES! AA5744 best replaces BP. I use it in 45-90, 45-70, 40-82, 38-55 but not in the 32-20, (Unique) 25-20 (4198) and 3031 in the 30-30, 32-40 and .32 Spl
 
OK, but I have never seen AA5744 for sale anywhere (at least I never noticed it) and I certainly don't have any.........quick check of Rusty Wood shows no stock and Budget doesn't even list it............so now how about RL 15 and 3031?
 
In the .32-40 try IMR-4227. It works very well and is probably the most popular powder used by the schuetzen crowd for that cartridge. It should also work well in the .38-55 but I haven't tried it. I've used a lot of h-4198 in .45-70's with cast bullets. Lighter charges of it seem to work a lot better with magnum primers.

Chris.
 
Another vote for SR 4759 if you have a leftover supply(such a shame that it was discontinued) or AA 5744. I have used 30-31 and 4891 in long straight cartridge's but found they worked best at the upper end of what I would call a "safe" load in a modern built version of a turn of the century action, They were erratic with the lighter loads I considered (1300 fps or less) suitable for original old guns.
 
IMR 3031, 29 and 30 grain both give me about 1500 fps with the Bullet Barn .379 cast bullet. The ones I bought were 245 grain, are you sure yours were 255? I'm not happy with that mix because of the unburned powder residue. I haven't looked in the action or chamber for unburned powder, but certainly notice it by looking down the barrel. Just loaded them a week ago and shot them last week. Loaded the same cases this week with the same powder for load development. Forgot to take that Gun to the range today. Ha-ha. I'm shooting (when I remember to take it with me) a late 20th century Winchester commemorative so I'm not having to keep my pressure down.

I haven't checked for residue when I loaded 4895 previously.

Greg S
 
c-fbmi said:
OK, but I have never seen AA5744 for sale anywhere (at least I never noticed it) and I certainly don't have any.........quick check of Rusty Wood shows no stock and Budget doesn't even list it............so now how about RL 15 and 3031?
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Douglas, for what its worth, in doing considerable experimenting with 7-08 rifles, I found that Re15 had the same properties as 4064. The same charge, all conditions the same, Re15 and 4064 had the same velocity, within the usual tolerance of the chronograph and they had the same point of impact, with 139 grain bullets.
Bofors make the Re powders, as well as the Norma brand, with Re15 being the same as Norma 203.
I used a lot of Norma powder when it was readily available and 203 was the recommended Norma powder for the 30-06. 50 grains gave a 180 bullet an honest 2700 fps, as a guide on it.
So, Re15 could be used instead of Norma 203.
Bruce
 
Hey Bruce, that was a misprint..........I meant to type RL 7.........not RL 15, RL 15 is too slow for the 38-55...........I just had a light bulb illuminate in my bean and went to Ken Waters books, low and behold there is proper load data for both RL 7 and 3031 and I just finished loading 50 with each powder and when it quits raining I'll be giving them a try.

And Greg S you are entirely correct.......Bullet Barn 38-55 bullets are indeed 245 not 255 as I typed earlier...........another brain fart.........
 
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