Sniper Course Oct 1944

[cigar_man]

Posted as Oct 1944, they thought possibly 1945.

Writing on back is not good.

Snagged from a friend in Quebec, looking to find out where this was taken.

As it turns out, another family member chimed in, written on the back it says Bordon October 1944, it's Bordon, UK

"you are right !
My mistake , i read Borden and after I realized it was Bordon. My dad is second row, 5th from left .
He was with Regiment the Hull at the time but joined the Vandoos right after that sniper course"

 

[superbee]

awesome picture!
Wish it was included in Clive laws book.

Anybody know any names?

 

[purple]

It would be interesting to know how many of the graduates got the opportunity to study a man's face through their scopes before pulling the trigger on him. Marksmanship and fieldcraft can be learned, the psychological aspect of intimate killing, not so much.

 

[cigar_man]

To the best of knowledge, the names are not known, but they figured this might have been taken at Borden.

Good question, purple.

My father was a WW2 Vet and when I was growing up, most of his friends throughout life had served in all theatres of war from Europe to the Pacific, so I must say, the very thoughts on this subject arose more than once. As you know, they where living with a daily fear of the unknown that anything, anywhere could happen to them.

My father also said, even living here in Ontario, you never knew what Germany was up to and they always heard of their far reaching weapons.

After more than a few beers one day, one of his close buddies who served in the CDN Army talked about shooting someone in combat. His words where, if I didn't pull the trigger, it would have been someone else here drinking my beer, I would have been dead. He never used the word sniper, he served as a designated marksman. He was a very gentle and polite man, but one of the toughest friends my dad had.

Now, could they all have been like that, living in that day and age, I doubt it, but that fear of the unknown that they fought for, surely must have helped.

I served in the CDN Army in peacetime during the late 80's.

Could I have ever done that, I have often asked myself.

To me the answer is, yes, but I would hope my conscience would not pay me a visit later.

Thank God, I never really had to find out!

 

[bearhunter]

It would be interesting to know how many of the graduates got the opportunity to study a man's face through their scopes before pulling the trigger on him. Marksmanship and fieldcraft can be learned, the psychological aspect of intimate killing, not so much.

From personal experience, there are some that cannot bring themselves to kill another person, under any circumstances. They usually aren't a problem, if their superiors know there's a problem.

Still, it all depends on circumstances. Its also been my personal experience that such individuals often get the people around them hurt or killed, when situations become dire.

I've seen individuals that had to go through dangerous trials to prove their transition to manhood, refuse to kill a human, even when their lives and the lives of others depended on them doing so. Religion had a lot to do with it in some cases. Not all though.

Not everyone can learn to kill humans and follow through with the learning.

Tough call, some individuals get by for a long time before they're caught out.

I read a report on a combat situation in Viet Nam, where a US squad encountered NVA. After the encounter, which included a 20 minute firefight (quite lengthy) the Sergeant was concerned with the amount of return fire from his squad.

He lined the squad up for a quick field inspection and checked their weapons. Less than half were fired.

 

[purple]

There was a lot of operational research done by the US Army after WW2 and Korea on the extent to which troops at squad level actually used their weapons when in contact with the enemy. The non-firing/non-participation rate was surprisingly high. A few with the required mental focus and determination actually carried the day.

Same thing with the killer instinct in fighter pilots. Only a few become aces, and they rack up a disproportionately high percentage of kills.

Years ago I got to know a man who had actually been a sniper in the trenches in WW1. He wouldn't say how many people he had killed, but he was very enthusiastic about the Ross Rifle as a superior sniper rifle.

 

[skwerl]

It would be interesting to know how many of the graduates got the opportunity to study a man's face through their scopes before pulling the trigger on him. Marksmanship and fieldcraft can be learned, the psychological aspect of intimate killing, not so much.

Wow ...

 

[jtaylor]

Hello Cigar-man. Not very likely taken at Borden. I do not remember any brick 2 storey buildings there at all. Borden
was more H huts or smaller buildings spread out. All the gents appear to have No.4 Ts with the #32 scope. The sniper school at Borden (being relatively close to long Branch) had a variety of different sniper rifles in the photo I have of No.2 school dated Jan. 45. The first sniper school at
Borden I can safely assume started some time in 1944 and the first rifles were the Ross with the Warner & Swazey Scope. My mentor was one of those trainees. In regards to putting a man down with a rifle shot it is a matter of conditioning more than moral choice. JOHN

 

[cigar_man]

Hi jtaylor

I could not remember any buildings like that at Borden myself, but I never stomped onto that turf until 1985.

I also spent a fair time in those dingy H huts that seemed like the beds where leftovers from WW1.

I must admit though, the older I get, I really miss those days, but not the sand and mosquito's from hell.

Just recieved a email, pic is from Oct 1944, BORDON, UK

"you are right !
My mistake , i read Borden and after I realized it was Bordon. My dad is second row, 5th from left .
He was with Regiment the Hull at the time but joined the Vandoos right after that sniper course"

 

[seaforth72]

A similar course photo from 1944-07-15 was sold on eBay a few years ago. Some of the instructors appear to be the same as it the 1994-10 photo at the start of this thread. Only cropped portions of the 1944-07-15 photo were shown on eBay so I do not have a copy of the entire image. If you search for captainstevens photographs of snipers, you can scroll down. I organized the photos by war, by country and then chronologically as best I could determine. Three photos are from the July 15 1944 course.

 

[Robbs]

It has been awhile, but if memory serves me well, I thought the 4 person room I stayed in while on course at CFB Borden was a 2 story brick barracks building close to the aerodrome at the base? There were several brick barracks buildings there in the same area. There was a golf course nearby. Maybe these buildings were post WW2 but I definitely remember some 2 story brick barracks.

 

[seaforth72]

In cigar_man's photo, the second sniper from the right in the front rank has no cheek rest on his rifle. The sniper on the far left front rank also appears to be missing a cheek rest.

 

[Steve1987]

Great photos!

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,
Steve

 

[jtaylor]

CFB Borden

Hello Robbs. It is possible that brick buildings had been constructed for barracks. 4 persons to a room eh? You must have been an officer in training. In 1968 I took a rifle course there to try for the Bisley Team. There were approx. 50 of us lads . We stayed in a building just inside the right hand drive called the MTR. It was the camp prison. They were kind enough to take the cell bars off the cell entrance and lean them against the hallway on the outside. There were 4 bunk beds in each cell. One bed you put your rifle, shooting box, shooting jacket on - the other you slept on - 4 of us to a cell. We soon learned that if you placed your bunk closer than 6 in. to the outside wood wall you got infested with bugs that wrecked havoc with hairy body areas. On occasions we would push the bunks of a-holes closer to the wall when we left for range duty. Often we picked up sand fleas at the ranges. We road to/from in deuce and 1/2s that would backfire loudly when gearing down for some of the tight turns. The food wasn't the best. Field rations were better than some of our lunches. No water bottles issued - just a cup attached to a string/spigot from a water truck. Often the water tasted overly chlorinated. Heavy grey wool socks issued with WW2 boots. We never complained as some of us had been in camps that were worse. I wished for Bell tents rather than wood lice infested buildings.
I think we had it O.K. when one considered the impoverished conditions that others had to live in at other camps. In one in my past (1967) there were 6 hole kybos for each company. You knew where it was 1/4 mile before you saw it.
No that I am a spoiled old guy I can certainly appreciate only some of the sacrifices our lads endured. JOHN

 

[AP]

Hello Robbs. It is possible that brick buildings had been constructed for barracks. 4 persons to a room eh? You must have been an officer in training. In 1968 I took a rifle course there to try for the Bisley Team. There were approx. 50 of us lads . We stayed in a building just inside the right hand drive called the MTR. It was the camp prison. They were kind enough to take the cell bars off the cell entrance and lean them against the hallway on the outside. There were 4 bunk beds in each cell. One bed you put your rifle, shooting box, shooting jacket on - the other you slept on - 4 of us to a cell. We soon learned that if you placed your bunk closer than 6 in. to the outside wood wall you got infested with bugs that wrecked havoc with hairy body areas. On occasions we would push the bunks of a-holes closer to the wall when we left for range duty. Often we picked up sand fleas at the ranges. We road to/from in deuce and 1/2s that would backfire loudly when gearing down for some of the tight turns. The food wasn't the best. Field rations were better than some of our lunches. No water bottles issued - just a cup attached to a string/spigot from a water truck. Often the water tasted overly chlorinated. Heavy grey wool socks issued with WW2 boots. We never complained as some of us had been in camps that were worse. I wished for Bell tents rather than wood lice infested buildings.
I think we had it O.K. when one considered the impoverished conditions that others had to live in at other camps. In one in my past (1967) there were 6 hole kybos for each company. You knew where it was 1/4 mile before you saw it.
No that I am a spoiled old guy I can certainly appreciate only some of the sacrifices our lads endured. JOHN

If you are talking about CFB Borden (Ontario, Canada) and not Bordon (Hampshire, UK) then the military prison was called the 'spiderweb' ... the cells extended - in long halls, from a central building hub - just inside the Alliston (south) gate. For many years it was used as a Militia barracks


EDIT to add ... I believe that the "MTR" you are referring to was the "MTC" (Militia Training Centre) .... I remember when my younger brother discovered some old canisters of CS gas stashed around the MTC and accidentally discharged one in his face.

 

[Vayra]

great photo, thanks for posting it!

 

[deckerhead]

Hello Cigar-man. Not very likely taken at Borden. I do not remember any brick 2 storey buildings there at all. Borden
was more H huts or smaller buildings spread out. All the gents appear to have No.4 Ts with the #32 scope. The sniper school at Borden (being relatively close to long Branch) had a variety of different sniper rifles in the photo I have of No.2 school dated Jan. 45. The first sniper school at
Borden I can safely assume started some time in 1944 and the first rifles were the Ross with the Warner & Swazey Scope. My mentor was one of those trainees. In regards to putting a man down with a rifle shot it is a matter of conditioning more than moral choice. JOHN

I have no helpful input on this photo, but however as a member of the Base Borden Gun Club I can assure you there are a few older brick buildings at CFB Borden. Our indoor archery range is a big old brick building most likely built around WW1 era.

 

[AP]

I have no helpful input on this photo, but however as a member of the Base Borden Gun Club I can assure you there are a few older brick buildings at CFB Borden. Our indoor archery range is a big old brick building most likely built around WW1 era.

There were several brick buildings on the 'Airforce Side' in Borden ... seems to me there was also a small 'rec' centre there with a pool table .. not to be confused with the Buell Building.