So i traded a cement mixer

M

Mitchell

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So i came across this old mauser in a trade for a cement mixer. As far as i can tell it would be an 88/05. Can i shoot normal 8mm through it since its a converted 88? Its too bad the stock was sanded and varnished.

Im trying to post pictures but it has been a while. Has photobucket gone down hill?


What else can you guys tell me about this old milsurp? It isnt the era i usually dabble in so any info will help. I do not need a dollar value on it. Thanks
 
Good trade for a great rifle! To find out wether you can shoot commercial 8mm or not you would have to slug the bore. Many of these 88s have a .318 bore not the standard .323. If it does have the .323 then you are ok to shoot commercial 8mm. I would stick to lighter loads though as it is a very old rifle developed at the very beginning of the smokeless powder age.
 
An early bolt action design. Not strong enough for smokeless, but lightish loads of blackpowder will make it go bang satisfactorily. You have to work to make a cement mixer give value - this one will just appreciate by sitting still. Keep it well oiled!
 
It HAS the S-mark on the top of the receiver ring: it HAS been altered to handle the 1904 ammunition.

NO troubles with modern commercial 8mm Mauser.

Have fun!
 
Smellie picked the S mark out so you're good to go with .323 dia. modern ammo. As far as "not safe for smokeless" goes the rifle was designed for smokeless. American 8x57 ammo is considerably underloaded. Personally I would stay away from the European produced stuff as it is loaded much hotter and it is an old rifle.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
An early bolt action design. Not strong enough for smokeless, but lightish loads of blackpowder will make it go bang satisfactorily. You have to work to make a cement mixer give value - this one will just appreciate by sitting still. Keep it well oiled!
Click to expand...

Nonsense

smellie said:
It HAS the S-mark on the top of the receiver ring: it HAS been altered to handle the 1904 ammunition.

NO troubles with modern commercial 8mm Mauser.

Have fun!
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^^
Agree
 
Oh no... So much misinformation in this thread.

I would search for gewehr 88 at milsurp.com and do some reading.

Some guns were .318 bore so always good to slug it, but most votes were .321".

The 88/05 was designed and updated for the 154gn WW1 era rifle round with smokeless powder.

You can tell a .318 bore with basic vernier callipers at the muzzle. It will be either .318 or .321.
 
Reloading cast bullets (of correct dia.) would be a good option for an old rifle like this. Loads of relatively low pressure could be used. No bore wear, less recoil , less muzzle blast, accuracy can be as good as jacketed and cost should be significantly less.
 
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Infanteriegewehr 88 or Gewehr 1888 and Ammunition

I have made a summation of some of the markings and ammunition as it applies to the Gew 88.

The Germans copied the rifling of the 1886 Lebel rifle in their hurry to get a smokeless powder rifle into production. A bore diameter 7.9mm (0.311”) was adopted and with a grove depth of 0.10mm (0.003937”) and rifling width of 4.5mm (0.177”), with 4 groves with a right twist.

The original 88 bullet had a weight of 14.7 grams (226.9 grains) and a diameter of 8.1mm (0.319”).

The bullet jacket and rifling combination resulted in 50% of the rifles returned in 1897 needing new barrels.

In 1894 depths of 0.125mm, 0.15mm, 0.175mm and 0.20mm were tested at Spandau.

After testing it was found that increasing the grove depth from 0.10mm (0.003937”) to a grove depth of 0.15mm (0.0059”), for a total grove diameter of 8.2mm (0.3228” or 0.323”) solved the barrel problem.

The new grove depth was adopted in July 7, 1896 by a Prussian “All-Highest Decree” N0. 10 345.

All new and converted rifles with the 0.15mm depth groves were stamped with a “Z”.

“S ammunition” adopted by order of 4/3/1903, No. 251.03. The “S” bullet had a diameter of 8.22mm (0.3236”). The larger bullet needed the chamber to be modified as the 1888 case was still used.

The rifles with the modified chambered rifles for the “S” cartridge were marked with an “S”.

The War Ministry ordered that only 1888 rifles with new unused barrels be adapted for the “S” cartridge.

The early production 1898 Mausers were also stamped with a 2.5mm “S” on the head of the breech and on the barrel when converted to the “S” cartridge.

Original 1888 Barrel = ((0.1mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.1mm)) = 8.1mm = 0.3188976” or ~ 0.319”

Barrels after July, 7 1896 = ((0.15mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.15mm)) = 8.2mm = 0.3228346” or ~ 0.323”

“S” bullet diameter = 8.22mm = 0.323622” or ~ 0.324”

“S” bullet diameter minus bore diameter = 8.22mm – 8.2mm = 0.02mm = 0.0007874”

MARKINGS

2mm diameter dot = Modified barrel contours, post 1891.

Z 3mm high = Deepened rifling groves, post 1896. A large 7mm “Z” may also be stamped on the right side of the butt.

S 3mm high = Rifles suitable altered for S-Munition. 1903-5. An additional 7mm crowned “S” may be found on the right side of the butt.

n 2mm high = Signifies an 88/14 conversion, 1914-15.

Unit marking are generally located on the left side of the barrel band, and occasionally on the top service of the butt plate. For example ( 132.R.5.116 )


Cartridge examples.

Cartridge Powder Gas Pressure Velocity Powder Type

88 = 2.67 g Gew.Bl.P. (1890-91) = 3350 atm. = 610 m/s = Ethyl acetate till 1899.

88 = 2.63 g Powder 436 (1898) = 2700 atm. = 620 m/s = Ethyl alcohol powder.

98 = 3.2 g S 682b (1903) = 3100 atm. = 870 m/s = Ethyl alcohol w/diphenylamine. (Original “S” cartridge with the original 9.8 gram bullet)

610 m/s = 2001 ft/sec
620 m/s = 2034 ft/sec
870 m/s = 2854 ft/sec

One atmosphere = 101.325 kPa = 14.70 pounds per square inch
3100 atm = 45,557 pounds per square inch


“S” and “sS” cartridges.

Cartridge Charge Bullet form Bullet weight Velocity (Vo)

“S” = 98 = 3.2 g = short concave arched base = 10.2 grams = 895 m/s = 2936 ft/sec
“sS” = 98 = 2.85 grams = long torpedo shape = 12.8 grams = 785 m/s = 2575 ft/sec
Barrel lengths, 740mm = 29.13”

The “sS’ cartridge was adopted in 1918 as a long range machine gun cartridge and was the standard issue cartridge of WW2.


Rifles 88/05 and 88/14

The basic modifications’ for the rifles designated 88/05 and 88/14 were to use the 98 charger leading method instead of the original 88 Mannlicher clip that goes into and forms part of the magazine. Charger guides were added and the magazine was modified for charger loading. The rear sight was also modified for the ballistics of the “S” cartridge.

The Carbine 88 and the Rifle 91 were similarly modified. The Rifle 91 is the Carbine 88 with a stacking hook added, similar to the Carbine 98 AZs stacking hook.

The Yugoslavians’ modified 1895 Mannlicher straight pull rifles from 8x50Rmm to 8x57mm.
The 1890 Mannlicher straight pull was also modified from 8x50Rmm to 8x57mm, I believe by the Greeks.

Oil cleaning was introduced in October 1897, water had been used prior to that.

One inch = 1” = 25.4 mm
One foot = 1’ = 0.3048 m, Both from Canadian Metric Practice Guide CAN3-Z234.1-76

All dimensions in both books are in metric.

The preceding information was from “German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871 – 1945”,
By Hans Dieter Gotz. Translated by Dr. Edward Force, CCSU. Includes information on assault rifles and Sten copies.

And “The German Rifle, A comprehensive illustrated history of the standard bolt-action designs,
1871-1945”. By John Walter. Includes information on the use of captured French Chassepots
He quotes from Gotz.

German Bayonets

For German bayonets the book “World Bayonets 1800 to the present” by Anthony Carter, is a good choice. It contains pictures of 258 bayonets, 66 of them German from 1860 to WW2.

Hope this helps.

Also:
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirear...ms/92/GEW-1888-Commission-Rifles#.VGZXP5UtDIU

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?14-Mannlicher-Steyr-amp-Blackpowder-Cartridge-Rifles

http://www.militaryriflejournal.com/

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann13.htm

Almost an 88

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann04.htm
 
Having shot several 88s and from my own conclusions I will give the following answers.

1) the 'S' marking does not mean it is safe to shoot standard 8mm Mauser ammo through it. It also doesn't mean the barrel is .323. These are common myths. I have a 'S' marked 88/05 with a .3215 dia bore, not a .323 bore. The 'S' marking simply meant the rifle could chamber the new cartridge (some of the rifles required a slight chamber reaming to make it 'S' certified). These rifles also were used all over after WWI and some were rebarreled with barrels as tight as .316 dia!
2) just because it was done doesn't mean it was safe. The 'S' loading of 8mm Mauser was a 154grn bullet at 2850ft/sec. This has caused some of these rifles to blow up in service. There is also poor gas venting with this design which means its not particularly safe for the shooter when stuff like this happens.
3) I would slug it, however you can also get .321 dia bullets (.32 special bullets) which should work just fine in these rifles, and under a light loading is very pleasant and fun to shoot.

If you want more of the history I highly recommend reading up on the early development of these rifles and everything that went wrong, its a horror story to say the least.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
An early bolt action design. Not strong enough for smokeless, but lightish loads of blackpowder will make it go bang satisfactorily.
Click to expand...

Huh?Whatever gives you that idea?Gew 88 action is strong enough for what it was designed to shoot and 8x57 isn't exactly "wimpy" caliber.That goes for both J and even more so JS version.

You just have to make sure you know what you are shooting,You wouldn't shoot .321 jacketed projectiles in even large bored 303 Bit,would you?
 
Thanks everybody. Very interesting history to these it sounds. Took it apart today and underneath everything it is still covered in cosmoline. Bore is dark but we will see how it cleans up and i will have to give the bore a measure, i think i have small hole gauges here.
 
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