so many ar-15's, what's the diff?

Davy Crockett

Davy Crockett

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so I decided as soon as I get my rpal the first thing I'm going to buy is an AR-15, no problem I figure. Then I find gun nutz and it got a whole lot more complicated. Just off hand there's Colt, Armalite, Norinco, Stag, LMT and I know there's more. I just want a solid M4 type carbine that'll feed whatever I put into it reliably. What are the differences between them and are there any to stay away from? Also I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this too but are any non-restricted?
 
there's no such thing as a non-restricted AR15. Particularly, it's the lower reciever that's classed as restricted. The barrel, stock, etc. are all not even classifed as firearms.

As for what to buy, it depends what you're planning to do with the rifle. If all you're doing is shooting at the range (or even shooting service rifle) anything from the CGN sponsors will be more than sufficient: RRA, LMT, Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, Stag, Dlask, Norinco (in no particular order). If you're planning on using the firearm as an actual weapon, and slinging and shooting the gun all over the place, then you'll want to start getting picky about specific parts.

Personally, I'd got for cheap and easy to start..
 
alright thanks for the input (there's a lot on that site Assyrian!). You guys are quick, doesn't anyone work around here :p

now as for buying used, which is probably what I'll do, what does a guy look for or rather look out for?

p.s. how is Norinco? I thought they used to be kind of the Lada of firearms but a lot of guys seem to be shooting them here.
 
Seems accurate judging from the other articles I've read on this subject. THere was a super handy chart that showed the features and the milspec equivilant. Best 2 were Colt and Bushmaster, but I can;t find the chart anymore.

Here's the original link;
http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/ar15brands.msnw?pgmarket=en-us


Armalite (Geneseo, IL):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: Standard on some variants (not on "Match" rifles)

Chamber Type: SAAMI (Match Rifles), M16 for chromed barrels (Note: barrels produced before Nov 2001 all had SAAMI chambers; barrels marked "N" under the handguards by the barrel nut have chambers cut to M16 dimentions).

Barrel Material: 4140 chrome/moly, Stainless

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 7.62x51 (.308), .243, .300 Remington Short Action Magnum (all in the AR-10 line)

Lightweight Styles Available: M4 (on the SOF model)

Warranty: Limited Lifetime

Extras: 10 round magazine, manual, sling, magazine cover, magazine well cover

Notes: Chrome lined rifles are field capable, the rest are great range (target shooting) rifles. Green furniture (hand guards, pistol grip, stock) is available on some models. Carbine handguards are mid-length (have a longer sight radius than most other carbines) - its non standard, but looks better, has a better sight radius, and a softer recoil.

ASA (Scottsdale, AZ): (*out of Business*)

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers : No

Chamber Type: SAAMI

Barrel Material: 4140 chrome/moly, Stainless

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: .No

Lightweight Styles Available: Fluted

Warranty: None Noted??

Extras: None Noted.

Notes: They are entering an agreement (possibly an exclusive) to market the new 'plastic lowers' (see the FAQ) made by Cavarly Arms, to make a very lightweight rifle..

Bushmaster (aka Quality Parts) (Windham, ME):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: Standard (not avail on DCM or Varminter rifle)

Chamber Type: M16 (except DCM or Varminter Rifles which are SAAMI)

Barrel Material: 4150 chrome/moly (Mil-Spec), Stainless (avail for DCM model)

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 9mm (in their Carbon-15 line)

Lightweight Styles Available: A2, M4 (both 14.5 & 16" versions), Lightweight 16" (A1 type), Fluting

Warranty: Limited 1 year parts & workmanship

Extras: Hard case, 10 round magazine, nylon sling, manual. DCM/CMP rifles add a 2nd magazine and a Viper range safety device.

Notes: AR-15s that are field capable and accurate. Good Customer Service. Some have had indexing problems resulting in excessive windage for zeroing (fixed for free). C7 uppers are available (A1 upper with brass deflector) and are called A1 uppers in the catalog.

Colt (Hartford, CT):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: All current manufacture 5.56 rifles have chromed chambers, only M4 & A2 barrels have chrome bores (older barrels do have both chrome lined bores & chambers)

Chamber Type: M16

Barrel Material: 4150 chrome/moly (Mil-Spec)

Standard Pins: Depends. "Blue Label" rifles have proprietary fire control pins with a standard pivot pin. Other rifles (SP-1s & most green labels) have standard fire control pins with a proprietary pivot pin. There are also probably some rifles with both pins standard and a few where neither pin is standard.

DCM Variant: No (but an upgraded trigger is available for match shooting)

Other Calibers: 7.62x39 (no longer produced), 9mm, .222 (very rare, no longer produced)

Lightweight Styles Available: A2 (preban), M4 (14.5"&16"), 16" A1 style

Warranty: Limited Lifetime

Extras: Two(2) magazines (LEO rifles have hi-caps, others are 9 rounds), sling, manual, cleaning kit

Notes: AR-15s that are field capable and accurate. Questionable Customer Service (good & bad reports). Generally the most bug free from the factory. Most Colt’s can accept other Mfg’s uppers without adapter pins.

DPMS (Becker, MN):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: No

Chamber Type: M16 (chamber is M16 though barrel is marked .223)

Barrel Material: Stainless, 4140 chrome/moly (on 'Classic' series)

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 7.62x39, .308

Lightweight Styles Available: Fluting, M4, Lightweight 16"

Warranty: None. However, they will repair rifles up to 3 years after date of purchase due to defects in materials or workmanship.

Extras: Two(2) 10 round magazines, nylon sling, cleaning kit

Notes: Very Accurate AR-15s that are more suited for the range, varmint hunting and urban sniping. They also a left handed variant for southpaws, and a pump action AR-15 that avoids the limitations of the 1994 "Assault Weapon Ban".

Eagle Arms (Geneseo, IL):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: No

Chamber Type: SAAMI

Barrel Material: 4140 chrome/moly

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: No

Other Calibers: .308 (Budget AR-10 rifle < $1000)

Lightweight Styles Available: None

Warranty: Limited one year

Extras: None Noted.

Notes: Entry-level AR-15. EA is owned by Armalite and is put out as their ‘economy’ line.

Olympic Arms (Olympia, WA):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: None (chrome lining was available as an $80 upgrade at one time)

Chamber Type: SAAMI on all rifles prior to June 2001, after June 2001 all chrome moly barrels will be done with an M16 type chamber, and the Stainless Ultramatch will keep the SAMMI chamber. (unless other is specified, barrel is always marked 5.56 no matter what the chamber is)

Barrel Material: 4140 chrome/moly, Stainless

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 7.62x39, 6mm PPC, .22LR, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, .17Rem (in the past), .30 Carbine

Lightweight Styles Available: A1, A2, M4, Fluting

Warranty: Limited Lifetime

Extras: 10 round magazine, nylon sling, manual, hard case

Notes: Good Customer Service. Their Stainless Ultra Match (SUM) barrels are VERY accurate. Good entry level (reasonably priced) AR-15. A wide variety of calibers available, and the pistol calibers can be setup to use your pistol magazines. They also sell a Airsoft upper, and Simunitions uppers (for LEOs only) for training purposes.

Rock River Arms (Cleveland, IL):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers: Right now (Dec 02) they are only offering chrome as an option on the M4 bbls...+$30 for the upgrade. They did do small batches of chrome on other barrels, but as supplies of them have run out, they have decided not to offer, at least at this time, chrome lining other than on the M4s. (info courtesty of: Sluggo of AR15.com)

Chamber Type: M16 (chrome lined M4 barrels) & Wylde (on all others)

Barrel Material: 4140 chrome/moly, Stainless

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 9mm, .308

Lightweight Styles Available: M4

Warranty: Unkown

Extras: Unkown

Notes: RRA has a good reputation among the DCM shooters. They also offer some unique items such as a Short fixed buttstock (shorter than A1), a removable front sight, and mid length handguards (like Armalites). Green furnature is available. Good pricing on M4 handguards.

Vulcan Arms [formerly known as: Hesse] (Inver Grove, MN):

Chrome Lined Barrels & Chambers : No

Chamber Type: M16 is standard, SAAMI is used on 'Match' rifles

Barrel Material: 4140 Chrome Moly, Stainless

Standard Pins: Yes

DCM Variant: Yes

Other Calibers: 7.62x39, 6mmx45, 6mmPPC, .300 Fireball (Whisper), .17 Remington, .50AE

Lightweight Styles Available: None

Warranty: None. However, they will repair rifles up to 1 year after date of purchase due to defects in materials or workmanship.

Extras: Magazine, manual

Notes: Those with the M16 chambers and stainless barrels should do OK in the field, just be sure to keep that chamber clean. There have been a lot of complaints about the quality and customer assistance of these rifles (when they were Hesse) on AR15.com.
 
That list is kind of outdated. In my opinion, LMT represents the best value here on our Canadian market. LMT is a US military supplier and their carbines apart from being parkerized under the front sight base are built as close to military specifications as is legally possible, in fact I like my LMT's more than my Colt LE6920 which I keep around as an investment piece. Stags are nice too, I just don't like the rollmark (deer head). RRA/Armalite/Bushmaster will also get you a quality AR for a reasonable price. Avoid Norinco and Olympic Arms.
 
So is the key factor in whether a gun is suitable for range only or service type use would be a chrome barrel/chamber? Would this be a corrosion/wear issue?

of course being restricted it will be used range only but it never hurts to have a piece that'll do double duty if need be
 
If you're on a limited budget, your best bet is to pick up one of those cherry Colt HBAR, A2s etc...that are popping up in the EE quite frequently! Wish I had the cash in hand to take advantage of some of those really excellent prices!

If you must have an M4 "style" AR, you better have a fat bank account if you're looking for a Colt 6921 or the longer bbl. 6920. They're commanding premium prices these days because of suppy & demand.

However, as Koalorka said above, LMT are making rifles that are every bit as good as the Colt, if not better. However, you'll be paying over a thousand bucks more for the pony rollmark. Personally, I can't see myself paying 3K on a bone stock AR, when I can get the same quality from Questar in the form of an LMT Defender.

Another of the "top tier" ARs is the STAG/CMT rifle line. They're top notch and darn near as good the LMT & Colt. Some guys don't care for the deer rollmark, really doesn't bother me, just as long as the quality is there!

The Armalites are usually pretty good rifles, as are Rock River Arms. Bushmaster & DPMS seem to be hit or miss. I've owned/used some really nice one and I've also come across some really nasty ones.

Unless you come across an exceptional deal, I generally avoid the smaller shops/resellers, as you don't know whether or not the lower's you're getting are within spec, seconds, etc... Some are good, some aren't, so its caveat emptor! You might find it helpful to post over at AR15.com or make use of their search function if you want to learn more about a particular brand/make.

However, you can't go wrong buying Colt, LMT or STAG. The latter two have great supporting distributors here in Canada and should the rare occurrence pop up that there is an issue with your new purchase, Mark & Walter have reputations for taking immediate action to make it right ASAP.
 
Actually that list I believe was for those looking to buy a mil spec'd AR which has certain criteria like chomed M16 chamber and lined barrel. There are near 20 different criteria to look for and the closest to genuine mil spec was the Colt (older or those with chome lined barrels as Colt no longer does this on all rifles) or Bushmaster (I called Bushmaster and asked them about the following chart, I should know more soon I hope). Not saying one is inherently better than the other just what is closest to spec. None of the civillian models covered everything, I believe the Colt's flaw was non-standard trigger group pins. The rest are further away but everything is subjective. If you don't care for a mil spec'd AR, get your own preference. Just remember, I got all my information from the internet and not from Colt, Bushmaster or the US Army so take everything with a grain of salt. Just make sure you're happy with what you buy and what you pay and you'll be golden.
 
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Found the chart

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

070810-AR-Chart.jpg
 
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I have been using LMT for years and they are good. The newer LMT seems to "look" better than the old ones. I really have nothing bad to say about LMT so far other than the unparkerized barrels under the FSB and those new ugly stenciled "MP" scribbling on their bolts. They work well but they don't seem to be the most accurate.

I have gone through a few colts....Colts did make lemons but their screw ups are very obvious and costly-they ####ed up one of the upper receiver extension timing. Some of the Colt LE carbines made near Y2K appear to be hacked out by chain saw but they work. - it is the function that matters. Colt...there is no service in canada.

I have also used bushmaster for years, especially their lowers. They are good too - but mine are the older ones made 6 or 7 years ago right after Y2K In fact, the bushmaster 14.5 I had was the most accurate - more than the LMT I have. I had a bushmaster that FTF many years ago - After R.Nicholl ####ed me around for a few months, busmaster replaced the entire thing for me. Bushmaster is kinda funny - their quality seems to be on rollercaster. They have some horrible years and none of their rifles work, then they fixed things up and was doing very good for a few more.... Freedom Venture is importing some I believe, we will see how the new ones are turning out.

I haven't used too many CMT stuff - I had built a 20" upper with a CMT upper. The dimension is right on. I just got a Stag upper and the assembling appears to be good, time will tell. I also have a stag lower , as far as I can tell the quality is good too. I like their lower more than their upper actually. The anodization on their uppers appears to be thinner, and one of my upper ended up having spontaneous anodization spalling. To Armeast credit, it was replaced almost instantly after a few picture exchanges on email. Armeast does take care of the products.

I have not used Armalite AR15 myself but a few of my friends do. One of my buddy's bolt is out of spec and the ejector kept sucking in brass shaving. Wolervine ended up giving him a new bolt and the problems went away. Every single armalite I had from AR10 to aR180b had some minor issues and Wolverine ended up sending all back to the factory. On the other hand, I know GPMG's Armalite ran like clockwork. I know Wolverine stocks parts on AR - so I will say Armalite is a safe buy and they appear to be quite accurate.
 
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thanks for all advice guys, I really appreciate it.

Now if only they'll hurry up and process my application so I can get something, anything! I went through 10 bloody minutes of phone menus at CFC today only to find out they were too busy and the damn thing hung up on me :mad:
 
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