Solar Affects

Shibby!

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While shooting yesterday we took notice of a possible external variable.

It was most noticeable/repeatable when dialed in around 400 yards.

Conditions for the day were light overcast and warm (for our area at around 23 degrees).

Repeated shots in a few inch diameter were possible rigning off 8-10 shots in a ~3" group.

We noticed this changed when the sun broke through the clouds. Mirage was easily seen in the scopes and the solar heating was fairly intense. Temperature seemed to jump 6 degrees. Our shots suddenly went up a few inches and appeared to do this every time the sun came out.

Were we imagining things or was this actually happening? Slight uplift from heat, combined with temporarily less dense air?
 
I have not seen this effect myself, though I know a number of very good shooters who say that the effect exists and is real. You get varying opinions as to the size of the effect (half an MOA, one MOA, etc).

When you noticed your shots being pushed high:
- was the wind stationary, i.e. was the mirage in a "boil"? (sometimes this is alleged to push your shots up)
- did you notice a rise in your P.O.I. for only a few shots, or did you get the opportunity to fire a multi-shot group in these "lights up" conditions and see how much the group's centre was shifted?

If real, this effect would not be caused by changes in air density (that's too small an effect to cause this). It would have to be caused by shifting the apparent position of the target (therefore causing you to aim in a different location in "lights up" condition versus in "low light" condition).
 
There's a saying "Lights up - Sights Up" I suppose that applies to your situation. The sun warms the air - making it thinner so the bullet strikes high.

A very common mistake people make when shooting is cloudy conditions and reading mirage is a cloud rolls in and blocks the sun and it is perceived as a wind let off because the mirage went away. The wind did not let off and the mistake is made when the shooters favors the downwind side of the target and the bullet strikes exactly where he's aiming.
 
I have not seen this effect myself, though I know a number of very good shooters who say that the effect exists and is real. You get varying opinions as to the size of the effect (half an MOA, one MOA, etc).

When you noticed your shots being pushed high:
- was the wind stationary, i.e. was the mirage in a "boil"? (sometimes this is alleged to push your shots up)
- did you notice a rise in your P.O.I. for only a few shots, or did you get the opportunity to fire a multi-shot group in these "lights up" conditions and see how much the group's centre was shifted?

If real, this effect would not be caused by changes in air density (that's too small an effect to cause this). It would have to be caused by shifting the apparent position of the target (therefore causing you to aim in a different location in "lights up" condition versus in "low light" condition).

"Lights up - Sights up" means aim HIGH, or the impact is high? We found that aiming in the same spot resulted in higher hits (or misses on smaller targets)

Mirage appeared to be boiling, or vertical.

I couldn't shoot a lot back to back, but with light overcast I was hitting bang on my cross hairs. Maybe 1" low and 1.5" to the right but I put a 4-5 shot group in a very tight circle. When the sun blazed down, my shots went high. Wind was calm during this discovery. Elevation of the round itself varied quite a bit as we were shooting over a small valley (40-65'?) which would likely decrease it's affect on the trajectory (differing from a bullet that was skirting the ground the entire shot).

We have issues reading wind and affect on projectiles at this location because essentially we are shooting over numerous valleys with a range of 1400 yards. The trajectory of the round not only gets "close" to the ground at the hill peaks, but I think gets affected by wind (generally from the west - mountains) coming up these valleys on the west facing slope so its varied between horizontal and uplifting.

Yesterday was by far the easiest day I have had shooting though. It's rewarding to make repeatable hits on various size targets at different ranges, then easily return to different distances and have first time hits. I'd like to test this "rise with sun" as the change was enough to affect shots on small targets and cause "hunting" if you are trying to chase down your POI.

For what it matters, I was shooting my load and gun in my signature.
 
You are not going insane. Light and temp WILL affect bullet POI.

I used to believe Sun up, Sights up meant dialing the scope higher on sunny vs cloudy conditions. I now believe, like your experience, when the sun comes out AIM LOWER... or another way, the effective elevation of your sight has "risen" with the sun.

It's all about the optical change of the light vs the air/humidity vs the terrain vs your optics. I bet different scopes will "see" a different effect on the same rifle under the same conditions.

At most matches, I never worry about a change in elevation over the course of a day when both temp and light can vary. Same target but zero is different. I try and get a ballpark/gut feeling so can anticipate as best I can but ultimately, let the paper decide for me.

Some days, the zero is markedly different from another day. The difference from morning to late afternoon can be surprisingly large too.

A few years back, I shot at Homestead and from Thursday (cold, wet and mucky) to Sunday (hot, bright and sunny), my 900m elevation changed just over 2.5 mins - DOWN.

How's that for chasing your zero....?
Jerry
 
welcome to the complex world of ballistics. Hotter temp, less dense air, bullet travels faster, less bullet resistance so higher the impact and less the drop.
 
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"Lights up - Sights up" comes from the days of iron sight shooting with post front sights and a six o'clock hold on a round aiming black or semicircular aiming black. Brighter light affected the shooter's perception of the thickness of the "white gap" he was holding between the top of the front sight and the aiming black. I *think* the effect is that with the brighter white, you end up aiming a bit higher in order to hold the same amount of perceived "white gap". So if I have gotten this right, this means that when the light increases your bullets will hit higher, and therefore to correct you'd want to take a bit of elevation off your sights (perhaps a quarter or a half minute?).

With a symmetrical aiming system (such as aperture iron sights, or any scope sight), this effect does not apply - any effect you see with a scope would be due to atmospheric affects causing a shift in the apparent position of the target.

At 400 yards, changes in air density, humidity etc would not be enough to cause an effect you could observe (run some numbers through a ballistics program to see). At 1000 yards, yes, having air temperature quickly drop 5C or more might be visible on the target; but not at 400 yards.
 
"Lights up - Sights up" comes from the days of iron sight shooting with post front sights and a six o'clock hold on a round aiming black or semicircular aiming black. Brighter light affected the shooter's perception of the thickness of the "white gap" he was holding between the top of the front sight and the aiming black. I *think* the effect is that with the brighter white, you end up aiming a bit higher in order to hold the same amount of perceived "white gap". So if I have gotten this right, this means that when the light increases your bullets will hit higher, and therefore to correct you'd want to take a bit of elevation off your sights (perhaps a quarter or a half minute?).

With a symmetrical aiming system (such as aperture iron sights, or any scope sight), this effect does not apply - any effect you see with a scope would be due to atmospheric affects causing a shift in the apparent position of the target.

At 400 yards, changes in air density, humidity etc would not be enough to cause an effect you could observe (run some numbers through a ballistics program to see). At 1000 yards, yes, having air temperature quickly drop 5C or more might be visible on the target; but not at 400 yards.
 
I think most of this is the mirage and how a shooter reacts to what they see.

And that view is greatly affected by the scope they use vs their personal vision.

Maybe it is the top of the barrel heating up faster then the bottom thus causing the boreline to aim higher.... or is that lower :)
Jerry
 
If the changes in air density aren't enough to displace the hit, then the mirage displaced the image of where the target appears to be. This is like putting a stick in water, it looks bent. From the rifle it looks like you are aiming at the center of the target, but in reality the target is over just a bit.

I have done some testing with this where I mounted a 24x target scope in a fixture I made that was stabbed into the ground and pointed it at the target. After a while you can see the target appears to have moved and moved and moved and moved.
 
I think most of this is the mirage and how a shooter reacts to what they see.

And that view is greatly affected by the scope they use vs their personal vision.

Maybe it is the top of the barrel heating up faster then the bottom thus causing the boreline to aim higher.... or is that lower :)
Jerry

If you are talking theoretical barrel bending, it would be pointing down with the upper half extending from heat... Although doubtful .. =)



If the changes in air density aren't enough to displace the hit, then the mirage displaced the image of where the target appears to be. This is like putting a stick in water, it looks bent. From the rifle it looks like you are aiming at the center of the target, but in reality the target is over just a bit.

I have done some testing with this where I mounted a 24x target scope in a fixture I made that was stabbed into the ground and pointed it at the target. After a while you can see the target appears to have moved and moved and moved and moved.

I swear the difference was about 1MOA at 400. So around 4 inches.

I was first thinking change in density and maybe slight uplift from drafts, but the vision of the target moving makes sense too. I was ACTUALLY aiming differnetly, although unaware of it.

So what can you do to combat this? Other then being aware it happens? We typically have blue bird days, but when we do have clouds it's normally big fat thick marshmellow clouds that roll through and would cause these issues all day long. I often try to hit 3-4" targets at 3-600 yards, so thats the difference of hitting and missing easily (provided no other effects like wind)

This is the part of shooting that most interests me. As well as reloading. However I won't lie and say it can be fustrating when you are chasing targets and things aren't making theoretical sense. I'm terrible at reading wind, but relatively new at it. Last weekend was a great learning experience.
 
So what can you do to combat this? Other then being aware it happens? We typically have blue bird days, but when we do have clouds it's normally big fat thick marshmellow clouds that roll through and would cause these issues all day long. I often try to hit 3-4" targets at 3-600 yards, so thats the difference of hitting and missing easily (provided no other effects like wind)

This is the part of shooting that most interests me. As well as reloading. However I won't lie and say it can be fustrating when you are chasing targets and things aren't making theoretical sense. I'm terrible at reading wind, but relatively new at it. Last weekend was a great learning experience.

I read a very well written article long ago that if I recall was authored by McMillan himself. He went on in great detail about the mirage displacing the image of the target and how with experience, you learn to make the leap of faith and shoot - not where the target is in your scope - but where you know it must really be.

It's all about what you come to know is true about the effects of mirage.

You are well ahead of most because you have seen it and know it to be true. Most people don't have a rifle accurate enough or shooting skills to expose the condition.
 
big fluffy clouds = THERMALS.

We adjust for winds as light as 1mph. Look up how fast a thermal can move and how big some can get.

If these can displace an airplane, a bullet is going to get bumped for sure.

Sometimes you can 'see' the condition and adjust (learn ALL the quirks of that mirage). Sometimes, it just slams you and you miss.

But the air does move and learning to read it is what precision shooting is all about

I have had the pleasure of squadding with some of the better wind readers on this continent and you know there is some fancy footwork going when they hit center and targets on either side.... didn't.

Jerry
 
It's not "just wind" for the intellectuals out there.

Did a search on Wikipedia and this is what I got...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction

Atmospheric refraction is the deviation of light or other electromagnetic wave from a straight line as it passes through the atmosphere due to the variation in air density as a function of altitude. Atmospheric refraction near the ground produces mirages and can make distant objects appear to shimmer or ripple, elevated or lowered, stretched or shortened with no mirage involved. The term also applies to the refraction of sound.

Atmospheric refraction causes astronomical objects to appear higher in the sky than they are in reality. It affects not only lightrays but all electromagnetic radiation, although in varying degrees (see dispersion in optics). For example in visible light, blue is more affected than red. This may cause astronomical objects to be spread out into a spectrum in high-resolution images.

Whenever possible, astronomers will schedule their observations around the time of culmination of an object when it is highest in the sky. Likewise sailors will never shoot a star which is not at least 20° or more above the horizon. If observations close to the horizon cannot be avoided, it is possible to equip a telescope with control systems to compensate for the shift caused by the refraction. If the dispersion is a problem too, (in case of broadband high-resolution observations) atmospheric refraction correctors can be employed as well (made from pairs of rotating glass prisms). But as the amount of atmospheric refraction is a function of temperature and pressure as well as humidity (the amount of water vapour is especially important at mid-infrared wavelengths) the amount of effort needed for a successful compensation can be prohibitive.

Atmospheric refraction becomes more severe when the atmospheric refraction is not homogenous, when there is turbulence in the air for example. This is the cause of twinkling of the stars and deformation of the shape of the sun at sunset and sunrise.

For those of you still reading and probably with an IQ above 100 here's more...

http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/astr_refr.html

Astronomical Refraction

Terminology
“Astronomical refraction” is the angular displacement of astronomical objects from their true or geometrical position, because of the bending of rays in the Earth's atmosphere. It is contrasted with “terrestrial refraction,” which is the corresponding angular displacement of objects on the Earth and in its atmosphere, such as ships, mountains, clouds, etc.
As the same atmosphere is doing the refracting in both cases, you can think of terrestrial refraction as the part of the astronomical refraction caused by the atmosphere between you and some object; obviously, this is not the whole atmosphere, so terrestrial refraction is always less than astronomical refraction at the same altitude above the horizon. On the other hand, as distant objects are never very far from the horizon, and refraction generally is largest near the horizon, even the terrestrial refraction can be quite large. Astronomers usually have the luxury of observing objects well above the horizon, where even the refraction due to the whole atmosphere is fairly small.

There's more detail about the relation between terrestrial and astronomical refractions on another page.



Amount of refraction

Astronomical refraction
To give some rough numbers: the astronomical refraction is about a minute of arc in the part of the sky midway between zenith and astronomical horizon, but is typically over 30 minutes of arc (half a degree) at the horizon. (This is the basis for the common claim that “when you see the Sun just touching the horizon, it has already set.”) However, in the Novaya Zemlya effect, commonly observed at high latitudes, but occasionally seen even as close to the equator as San Diego, the horizontal refraction can exceed two degrees.


Terrestrial refraction
Of course, the terrestrial refraction is smaller. But even so, it rarely is less than 1/15 of the angular distance of an object from the observer, as seen from the center of the Earth. Bearing in mind the rule that “a minute [of arc on the Earth's surface] is a [nautical] mile,” you can see that terrestrial refraction is usually several seconds of arc for relatively nearby objects, and can easily amount to several minutes of arc for distant mountains.
While terrestrial refraction is often imperceptible to the naked eye, it's huge compared to the errors of measurement in surveying, which are a few seconds of arc, or less. It turns out to be a more serious problem for geodesy than the astronomical refraction is for astronomy — especially because the refraction near the horizon is extremely variable, while astronomical refraction is well behaved at altitudes above 10 or 15 degrees.

This good behavior of the astronomical refraction over most of the sky was proved mathematically by Barnaba Oriani in 1787, so this rule is sometimes called “Oriani's Theorem”. (However, many other people had already noticed that very different atmospheric models gave almost identical results within about 75° of the zenith.)



Variability near the horizon
This variability near the horizon is very surprising to the average astronomer, who has been educated to believe that refraction (in the part of the sky where astronomical measurements are usually made) can be calculated accurately from the local atmospheric temperature and pressure. This is true in the part of the sky where Oriani's Theorem holds, but it breaks down very rapidly on approaching the horizon.
In fact, it can be shown that the refraction near the horizon depends mostly on the local temperature gradient, which is much more important than the local temperature itself. For this reason, all the refraction phenomena near the horizon — mirages, dip, terrestrial refraction, etc., as well as the astronomical refraction — are very sensitive to the temperature gradient; and they all vary a great deal more than does the astronomical refraction well up in the sky.

This sensitivity to temperature gradients, which vary a great deal from day to day, is the reason for the apparent “capriciousness” of green flashes (to use the term introduced by Willard J. Fisher.)



Calculation of the refraction

Given a model atmosphere, we can calculate the refraction at any apparent zenith distance (or altitude, which is the complement of the zenith distance). As the apparent (refracted) altitude happ is just the sum of the true (geometrical) altitude ht and the astronomical refraction R, the calculated table of R(happ) is easily transformed into a table of ht = happ − R. This function ht ( happ ) is often called the “transfer function” for astronomical refraction.

Once the transfer function is tabulated, it can be used to map the true shape of the low Sun (a small circle in the geometric sky) to the apparent shape we actually see, distorted by refraction. This is not quite as straightforward as it appears, because the calculation gives true altitude as a function of apparent. So we really have to do the mapping in reverse, and figure out what part (if any!) of the Sun appears at a given altitude in the sky. Really, it's necessary to do the calculation this way, because ht is a single-valued function of happ; but, in miraging conditions, happ can be a multiple-valued function of ht. That is, the multiple images of mirages mean that the same part of the Sun appears in two or more different places in the sky.

To do the green-flash simulations, it's necessary to repeat this calculation for several different wavelengths, and then combine the distorted images of different colors in a way that resembles what is actually seen in the sky. The details of how the simulations are made are given on a separate page.
 
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I'm by no means an expert but since nobody has said it yet it may as well be me. Muzzle velocity can vary based on the temprature of your ammo and the powder used. Is your ammo getting some sunshine when the sun comes out? Radiant heat from the sun may account for a rise in MV and POI.


Really interesting info in this thread by the way. This is why I love the precision rifle forum.
 
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