Something of interest

Status
Not open for further replies.

chuck nelson

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
68   0   0
Location
Alberta
I just plucked this from another site. As a non fan of the WSM family I was amused and found it interesting.

Terry Wieland’s On Shooting .... (written in the year 2006 - the 100th anniversary of the .30-06 Spr)

http://www.africansportinggazette.co.../shooting.html

Comparing profiles: The 300WSM (left) compared with the .30-06 (center) and .375 H&H. The latter two cartridges are renowned for their ease of feeding from the magazine, and reluctance to jam. The short, fat, 300WSM and others of the new "short magnum" family present difficulties in feeding, and many riflemakers are reluctant to chamber them.

Selling Short: Finally, the truth.

Over the past five years, the success of the so-called ‘short magnums’ (‘so-called’ for reasons we will get to in a moment) has been the wonder of the rifle business.

Winchester’s so-called creations (so-called, again, for reasons we will get to) took the shooting world by storm. Suddenly, you were nowheresville if you were not shooting a .300 WSM or .270 WSM. As gunmaker Darcy Echols wryly observed at the Safari Club International convention just past, “It’s a wonder any animals ever died, shot with inadequate cartridges like the .30-06 and .270 Winchester.”

This, of course, was the very same SCI convention during which it was announced that FN was closing down the old Winchester plant in New Haven, Connecticut, and discontinuing the iconic Winchester 94 lever- action as well as the Model 70 bolt-action rifle. In recent years, the Model 70’s lifeline has been the above-mentioned so-called short magnums, with new calibres appearing every year accompanied by the increasingly bizarre claims of the PR people.

So what happened?

Gather round, friends, and listen to a sorry tale of nefarious corporate America.

To begin with, the term ‘short magnum.’ Originally, this was appended to the .264, .338 and .458 Winchester (belted) magnums when they were introduced in the 1950s, to differentiate them from the ‘long’ .375 H&H-length cartridges. So even the term Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) was misleading. But I carp.

Fact is, they were not designed by Winchester at all – or by Olin-Winchester, the ammunition people, in cooperation with U.S. Repeating Arms, maker of ‘Winchester’ rifles, and Browning, its sister company. By the way, I apologize for the blizzard of quotation marks and parentheses that are flooding the page, but the situation is so weird and convoluted, it demands it. Please bear with me.

At any rate, none of the above companies designed any of the above new ‘short magnum’ cartridges. The concept belongs to one Rick Jamison, a rifle writer of considerable renown, who came up with the idea in the 1990s and took it to Winchester with an offer to allow them to produce the designs in return for putting his name on them. The companies declined with thanks. Six months later the first of the short magnums appeared with the sobriquet ‘WSM.’

What they had not counted on was the fact that Jamison, no fool, had patented his design. Not only that, he patented virtually every bore diameter (.338, .257, etc.) to which it might be adapted. When the first WSMs appeared, Rick sued. Six years later, Winchester settled, reportedly for about three million dollars. Within a month or two, U.S. Repeating Arms closed down its ancient New Haven plant. Whether there is a connection is still a matter of conjecture. Personally, I doubt it, but right now the Internet chat rooms are buzzing with speculation that Rick Jamison is personally responsible for the death of the Winchester 94.

Promptly, letters went out from Jamison’s lawyers to every riflemaker that might have chambered one of the short magnums in a rifle, demanding a retroactive royalty. Equally promptly, riflemakers fell over one another denouncing the short magnums as having a number of inherent flaws, and insisting they would not chamber them henceforth. Or, if a client insisted, they would add a premium to the price to cover Jamison’s royalty. Riflemakers like Darcy Echols, who have never chambered a short magnum and refuse to do so for a variety of sound ballistic reasons, are laughing.

So what are those sound ballistic reasons that, for some mysterious reason, never surfaced before all this legal turmoil came about? Why does everyone suddenly notice that the emperor is scantily clad indeed?

Not to brag, but in the 2004 Gun Digest, your obedient correspondent authored a piece entitled ‘Short Magnum Con,’ as part of a pro-and-con article in which Jon Sundra defended the short magnums and I attacked them. If I now continue the attack, it is not because I have suddenly seen the light.

So, the sound ballistic reasons: First, look at the claims. According to the company flacks, most of whom would not know a chronograph if they tripped over one on the way to the salad bar, the WSMs (and the similar Remington designs) produce higher velocity with greater accuracy, out of shorter rifles with shorter barrels.

The greatest law of ballistic science ever articulated says flatly “There is no free lunch.” This is no less true of the short magnums than of any other cartridge, from the .38-40 to the .378 Weatherby.

The concept behind the short magnums is nothing more than scaling up the 6 PPC, the darling of the benchrest world since the 1980s, which delivers great accuracy and supposedly, with its shorter powder column (it is a short, fat cartridge) greater burning efficiency and consistency. I have no argument with this concept in the 6 PPC. At larger bore sizes, however, it does not necessarily translate into a superior cartridge.

Do the WSMs really deliver higher velocity per grain of powder? Not that I’ve seen. Are they any more accurate? Not that I’ve seen. Do they operate at pressures that I do not want mere inches from my one and only set of eyes? They certainly seem to, if the stiffness of the bolts after firing and the flatness of the primers are any indication.

Finally, it is indisputable that short, fat cases do not feed easily in a bolt-action rifle. Probably the slickest cartridge in history is the .375 H&H, and it is thus because it is long, narrow and tapered. It slides out of the magazine and into the chamber like butter. With a WSM, the axis is farther from the line of bore, and with their almost parallel sides, the point of the bullet is directed out to the side. They tend to rock fore and aft in the magazine, and generally enter the chamber kicking and squealing.

This is not a huge drawback hunting pronghorns in Wyoming, but it can be a significant problem if you are after leopards in the bundu.

To date, to their credit, none of these companies has tried to translate the short-magnum phenomenon into a .375 or larger cartridge. It would be nice to think this is due to a sense of responsibility on their part, but somehow I doubt it.

The pressure question is something else. Kenny Jarrett, who knows more about accuracy, pressure, barrel-making, and cartridges than anyone I know, says one reason pressure builds excessively in the short magnums is because the bullet extends down into the powder chamber. Ideally, the base of a bullet should be seated no deeper than the base of the cartridge neck, becoming in effect part of the cartridge wall. When it extends into the chamber, the rising gas pressure does not start to move the bullet gently forward. Instead, it sits there like a champagne cork until the pressure reaches a peak, and then pops.

Kenny’s argument makes sense. A couple of years ago, when Winchester announced the .25 WSSM (a short-short magnum), we went to the firing line at the SHOT Show to test it by sending a few rounds downrange. Accuracy was nothing to write home about. What everyone noticed, however, was the severe jolt, remarkable for a cartridge that size, and the difficulty in lifting the bolt handle. This was on a cool winter day in the Nevada desert, shooting from a shaded bench. What the pressures might be under the Transvaal sun, I shudder to think.

So, at long last, everyone is bad-mouthing the short magnums. With the Model 70 gone, at least temporarily, the WSMs have lost their major vehicle. Independent riflemakers are finally telling their clients they really should look at other cartridges, for a variety of reasons. The Remington offerings, which are not involved in the donnybrook, are on life support anyway, according to industry scuttlebutt.

Since this is the 100th anniversary of the .30-06, look for a ‘rediscovery’ of its virtues and those of its offspring. Or even the original ‘short magnums. The .358 Norma, anyone? Or the .264 Winchester? Why not? They are great cartridges both – with no smoke, mirrors, or salad-bar bull****.
 
It is an interesting conundrum with the wsm's. What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is that a 30-06 is nearing the maximum recoil the mythical "average" hunter can withstand without developing a flinch. A 300 win mag is over what the same "average" hunter can withstand. A 300wsm is pretty much right in between the two when all three are hand loaded to their potential. Or basically exactly the same as a 300 H&H.

I have seen many guys shooting a 300 win mag, loaded to it's max with 180 or 200gr bullets, have a monster flinch when trying to shoot. I have seen a off hand flinch that would miss a barn at 100 yards. You don't see to many guys flinching badly with an equivalent 30-06.

So is the 300wsm running right on what the "average" hunter can withstand?
 
I have seen many guys shooting a 300 win mag, loaded to it's max with 180 or 200gr bullets, have a monster flinch when trying to shoot. I have seen a off hand flinch that would miss a barn at 100 yards. You don't see to many guys flinching badly with an equivalent 30-06.

First, OP, good article. Nicely laid out and I had not heard of the legal issues with the short mags before. I don't own one and don't ever expect to, they just seem too gimmicky to me to be an improvement over existing rounds.

LB, on the flinching front, are the ones flinching the same guys who only shoot a handful of rounds per year? In my limited experience with large calibre hunting rifles, it seems to me that the guys with bad flinching habits don't do much shooting and certainly never seem to get proficient enough to realize they have a problem and look to correct it. They definitely aren't the ones who practice shooting in field positions with their big boomers before the hunting season starts.

I shoot lots of rimfire through the year (1500+ rounds out of rifles, more in handguns), but not very many major centerfire rounds (maybe 200-250 per year). If/when I find myself getting twitchy while bench testing loads with a big calibre, I simply pull out a rimfire and shoot a string of rimfire between each string of centerfire to keep me concentrating on breathing, trigger control and maintaining sight picture through the shot. This invariably gets me to relax and not anticipate the shot, killing the flinch before it gets going.

I think that poor/nonexistent practice habits play a larger role than the actual recoil involved. What do you think?

Mark
 
The WSM's have been a study in human nature.

I have little use for them, not that I think they won't work, but I have yet to see what they offer over established cartridges. One can debate the short action advantage, but the 2-3 oz and 1/2" in action length don't amount to much...and believe me, I've tried! ;) And regardless of how much the internet talks them up, they don't feed as smoothly as a longer skinnier cartridge in any rifle other than a single shot!

What I can't help but notice is that the loudest proponents of the shorter mags on the internet boards are typically younger shooters, whose shooting experiences commenced well after there was a computer and internet in every home. They accept the rhetoric and instant feedback on the net, and discount anything that happened before "their" shooting careers started.

Wow, I sound like a curmudgeon and I'm still in my early 40's! :D
 
Great read! I have used the .308 and 30/06 my entire hunting life.The short mags came out and i figured i would try one.Browning a bolt 300wsm.I liked the rifle accuracy was excellent but i still use my 30/06.I have taken deer with both and had the same results.Using the same bullets handloaded {nosler accubond 165} i noticed little difference in the way the animal went down.There is a noticable kick from th 300wsm.I have nothing bad to say about the 300wsm or 30/06 but i did sell the 300wsm.I continue hunting with my .308 t/c icon and m77 mk2 30/06.
 
Well it is obvious Terry Wieland doesn't like the new Short Mags.

I have handloaded for and shot at least 50 rounds through 2 - Model 70's in 300 WSM, 1 Model 70 in 270 WSM , X-bolt in 270 WSM, Tikka T-3 Hunter in 300 WSM, Browning BAR Safari in 300 WSM, Browning BAR Shorttrac in 300 WSM and a Browning BAR Shorttrac in 7mm WSM.

I haven't had any feeding issues in any of them. Couldn't say they where more inherently accurate than any other cartridges I have loaded for but they all shot well without a lot of load development. Velocities over the chrony where as close to the manual numbers as other cartridges. That being said I didn't load any heavy for caliber bullets (heaviest in the 300 WSM was 168gr TSX, 154gr in 7mm WSM & 150gr in 270 WSM).

If I already had a 7mm Mag or a 300 Mag I wouldn't replace it with a WSM but if I was buying a new gun and wanted something in the 27 to 30 cal in a Magnum I would certainly choose the Short Mag. Why not take advantage of the shorter action and lighter weight?
 
It is an interesting conundrum with the wsm's. What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is that a 30-06 is nearing the maximum recoil the mythical "average" hunter can withstand without developing a flinch. A 300 win mag is over what the same "average" hunter can withstand. A 300wsm is pretty much right in between the two when all three are hand loaded to their potential. Or basically exactly the same as a 300 H&H.

I have seen many guys shooting a 300 win mag, loaded to it's max with 180 or 200gr bullets, have a monster flinch when trying to shoot. I have seen a off hand flinch that would miss a barn at 100 yards. You don't see to many guys flinching badly with an equivalent 30-06.

So is the 300wsm running right on what the "average" hunter can withstand?

it's a mental problem- the bullet weights are exactly the same, the ONLY difference between the 308/06/300 whatever is VELOCITY- it's ONLY b/c the 308/06 aren't moving as fast, they're not generating the same recoil-
 
i ahve never used such mordern cartridges as the wsm's and not trying to say anything bad about them. my first rifle was win 94 in 3030 and it took my first deer at the age of 20 (my age) i worked a pile of overtime and put money aside for a brand new tikka my first true hunting rifle as considdered by modern standerds chambered in 3006 my choice was based on history if its been around that long with that success its gotta work i try very ahrd not to fix what aint broken the old stuff works new calibres are still the same technology only dressed up by pr focused at young shooters and hunters i'm 23 and the most mordern catridge i own is the 204 ruger and i'm selling it soon because i have no use for it where i'm moving and i'll be hunting with my 06 or 458 win mag and continuing to shoot the rest of my older rifles the only question i have is why is this so improtant to rifle shooters/hunters i ahven't seen any new gauges for shotguns it seems that that comunity doesn't need these so call better cartridges just because they're new
 
I think that poor/nonexistent practice habits play a larger role than the actual recoil involved. What do you think?

Mark

I think that is exactly the issue. If you don't fire a 300 mag often it is a boomer, if you fire it often you get used to it. I would have to guess though that the largest portion of firearms are owned by guys that only shoot a handfull of shells and then go out hunting, a box of shells might last 2 -3 years.

I have 2 wsm's, a 300 and a 325. I would guess that the 300 has seen 50-100 a year for the last 6 years. I have never had an issue with feeding. Sure it's not as slick as an 06, but it has never failed to feed.

I would never argue that the WSM is better than any other 308 caliber, but I do feel it is at the max recoil level for many.
 
Chuck, your link to the article doesn't seem to work. I googled this one and believe it is the same one. http://www.africansportinggazette.com/html/volumes/vol-12-1/shooting.html. I didn't know about the legal battles over the WSM! Thanks for a great read.


So where's Gatehouse? I'm surprised he hasn't chimed in already. :stirthepot2: :popCorn:


it's a mental problem- the bullet weights are exactly the same, the ONLY difference between the 308/06/300 whatever is VELOCITY- it's ONLY b/c the 308/06 aren't moving as fast, they're not generating the same recoil-

T-Star, you should get a gold star for that response! I absolutely agree with you. As a competitive pistol shooter with 10+ years of experience, I have learned that flinching is a problem of the mind. Flinching is devastating to one's score in pistol target shooting and I have learned to virtually eliminate it. I also shoot a 300WM and 12ga 3" magnum slugs, all without flinching. I found it's all been mind over mater and have been able to transfer what I learned from pistol shooting.


I have tried a 300WSM and found no difference in recoil compared to a 300WM. The ballistic charts look almost identical up to 180gr projectiles. The real magic in a 300WM starts at 190gr. The charts show more energy than the 180gr! :eek: At 200gr to 220gr it has just a hair less energy than the 180gr, but a lot more wallop and better retained down range energy. I always thought the WSM hype was just a way to sell more guns, and this article seems to reflect the same.
 
i'm sure you mean mind over MATTER- mater is a whole different matter- like trying to control your wife mentally
 
I've said it somewhere else before;

hundred years ago the 6.5Swede, 7mil Mauser and 30-06 were all already there. If nobody would have designed another cartridge after that it wouldn't have mattered for hunting.

Lot's of hype and marketing after that.
 
i'm sure you mean mind over MATTER- mater is a whole different matter- like trying to control your wife mentally

Ooo... I don't think that would be a mater most of us would get to trying! :p

But back to the matter at hand, :) I rechecked a more recent chart and and it would seem the 300WM excels with projectiles over 200gr. Retumbo really kicks it up a notch and all projectiles from 190gr to 250gr have more energy than the 180gr!
 
I think that is exactly the issue. If you don't fire a 300 mag often it is a boomer, if you fire it often you get used to it. I would have to guess though that the largest portion of firearms are owned by guys that only shoot a handfull of shells and then go out hunting, a box of shells might last 2 -3 years.

<snip>

I would never argue that the WSM is better than any other 308 caliber, but I do feel it is at the max recoil level for many.

I would agree, a huge number of hunters in Alberta are the 10 rounds per year crowd.

I can't say about the recoil limit, it is so personal. I just shot my new elk rifle today (Ruger 77 in .338 Win Mag) and it was not that bad, IMO. I was concerned about the recoil before I bought it, but it is not subjectively any worse than a buddy's Rem 700 in .300 WSM. The 300 doesn't hit as hard, but it is snappier, where the .338 was more of a hard shove. I think almost anyone could get used to the .338 if they were willing to practice with it and work on the fundamentals to control anticipation and flinching.

Mark
 
I am in the market as we speak for a .338WM. I miss mine, and it was a super light gun (Tikka T3 lite) but , like mentioned above, I found recoil to be more of an "authoritative shove" than a hard snap. I also owned a savage 116 ss/syn in .300winmag and I found the recoil to be much harder to take. I can't wait to start loading up 225 and 250 grainers again.
 
The trend of big game loads these days is towards light bullets driven at very high velocity. The .30/06 and those cartridges it spawned are quite capable of playing that game without the potential loss of reliability exhibited from cycling WSMs in magazine fed bolt guns. For those who prefer to use heavy for caliber bullets, a .300 magnum has its appeal, but the short neck of the Winchester version detracts from the practicality of the heavy bullet concept. The .300 H&H with its long neck is a better solution to the heavy bullet problem. The real solution though is to understand that when terminal performance from a .30/06 is insufficient to solve your problem, you had best answer the question with a larger bore not a faster bullet.

As for the theoretical advantage of the short action rifle, IMHO it is a myth. The magazine is so short that it requires the bullet to be seated deep into the powder capacity, which increases pressure and decreases powder volume as you cannot displace the powder within the confines of a cartridge when seating the bullet, so not only does pressure increase, but velocity is lost due to a reduced powder charge. Loading heavily compressed powder charges is a pain in the butt which rarely results in good accuracy. I learned all this many years ago when the original very short .350 Remington Magnum was flaunted as the solution to the bush hunters problems and I just had to have one. The M-600 rifle was very compact, but the chamber throat was so short that loading 275 or even 250 gr bullets meant that velocity was closer to 2200 fps than it was to the 2400 fps that was advertised. The bullets had to be seated so deeply the only way to get even that velocity was to switch to a smaller charge of faster burning powder, which further increased pressure without translating into velocity. Clearly the old boring .35 Whelen was a better cartridge despite having exactly the same powder capacity as the short Remington. Had I only known that at the time.

Finally, operating a long action or even a magnum length action is no slower than operating a short action. It is simply a matter of muscle memory. Once you are used to it, you can cycle a magnum length action very quickly and reliably every time. I can transition easily between a magnum length action and a standard length action, but I actually find a short action a little strange feeling. Is the short action lighter? Sure, it probably amounts to a pound difference in rifles of similar dimensions and stock materials between a short action and a magnum length action. Much more weight can be shaved off by either purchasing a light weight stock, or by performing some weight cutting surgery on the factory stock than by choosing a short action over a long. Terry Wieland got it right.
 
I've said it somewhere else before;

hundred years ago the 6.5Swede, 7mil Mauser and 30-06 were all already there. If nobody would have designed another cartridge after that it wouldn't have mattered for hunting.

Lot's of hype and marketing after that.

you need to include the 375 H&H IN THAT CROWD- THEN YOU GET THE FULL SPECTRUM OF THE "ANCIENT"cartridges
 
Ooo... I don't think that would be a mater most of us would get to trying! :p

But back to the matter at hand, :) I rechecked a more recent chart and and it would seem the 300WM excels with projectiles over 200gr. Retumbo really kicks it up a notch and all projectiles from 190gr to 250gr have more energy than the 180gr!

if you're going to use 250's you might as well use the rifle that was DESIGNED for it- the 338 win mag- i haven't seen the numbers on the 300s( my book only lists 220s) but i wouldn't even consider a 30 cal- any 30 cal over 200 grains
 
So...what are you saying Boomer? The WSMs are not magic? Come on it's a proven internet fact that they are magic and loaded with factory pixy dust. That's how you can get more speed out of a smaller case and shorter barrel with less recoil and better accuracy.
I know you live way out there and have trouble getting the latest info but please try and keep up will ya.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom