Sorting Lead.... Need some Guidance

gnmontey

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My call out for lead has netted me lead from all manner of sources. Not complaining here;)

Some I have a vague idea as to composition, others not so much other than tactile means.

How should I sort this stuff, or should I be concerned in the first place? I'm casting for mild hand gun and a limited amount of BP rifle.

This is what I snagged so far.

Lead pigs. This is 7% ant, 2% tin and stamped such.
Stick on wheel weights. Supposed to be on the softer side.
Clip on wheel weights. Supposed to be harder than stick on wheel weights.
Control balancers. Spec sheet says 6% ant. but feels really soft.
X-Ray film backing. Don't have this yet, but apparently very soft.
Lead sheathing. Very soft, and from some sort of Telco application.
5/8" dia. coiled Lead wire. Very soft, and from some sort of Telco application. Never seen anything like this before?
Lead Pipe. Not so soft, and from some sort of Telco application.

So, what do I do with this stuff? Mix it all together or what?

M
 
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Find and download the bullet hardness calculator spread sheet from cast boolits.

I keep mine separated. Ingots are all stamped as to what they are. I have a unknown pile that once I have enough I will make up a big batch. I'll send a sample to a guy on castboolits for analysis and enter this in my calculator.

Right know I pretty much only use strait COWW for rifle and pure for slugs.

You can always blend lead but it is very hard to unbending it should you ever need to.
 
I'd ivest in a lee harness tester on Amazon or Higginsons Powder. Mind handlods is somewhat subjective but you can often get away with almost pure lead soft right up to dry dropped clip on wheel weights. The Lee tester is a real eye opener. Now that I'm used it knowing all my alloy hardness I can't imagine loading blind again.
 
I'd ivest in a lee harness tester on Amazon or Higginsons Powder. Mind handlods is somewhat subjective but you can often get away with almost pure lead soft right up to dry dropped clip on wheel weights. The Lee tester is a real eye opener. Now that I'm used it knowing all my alloy hardness I can't imagine loading blind again.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^,,, and don't mix it all together. Sort it into batches of the same stuff, melt it down and pour into ingots marking them for later identification. You can then test each batch to see what you have. Once that is done you will be able to mix alloys in a controlled way to suit your needs.


My set-up for the Lee Hardness tester,,,,,,,,,,,,,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3fiZ3CkOxM
 
Ok..... If I sort all my lead batches by hardness then what?

How do I blend them?

Sorry, if that sounds like a really stupid question, but I'm at a loss here.

What does X% HBW lead mixed with Y% HBW lead yield? Is it that simple?

M
 
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Yup that easy once you download the lead calculator

DpZWtKE.jpg
 
I downloaded the Lead Alloy Calculator.

So, I just pick 2 alloy with matching Brinell and play with the mix to get what I need?

M
 
With that wide range of materials the most valuable commodity is the commercially pure lead. Anything you can scratch with your fingernail probably falls into this category. Thish should include the stick on wheels weights, x-ray film backing, soft pipe and wire. Take it, melt it together and file it as pure lead.

Clip on wheel weights are low alloy, things with a few% antimony and tin are medium alloy.

For your black powder, pure lead is usually the recommended choice. For your low pressure handgun stuff 50:50 pure lead to low alloy or about 80:20 pure lead to medium alloy should work well.
 
Stick on wheel weight are not all soft. The ones that look like tape and are cut are normally soft but the ones that are molded into shapes you brake apart are not as soft (I put these in with COWW) There are also zinc, steel, plastic and other mixes that stick on to watch out for.
 
The calculator works quite well if you know what you have, not so well if you're guessing at alloy composition.

The thumbnail test only works for me if I have 2 samples side by side, I can tell if one is softer but I can't accurately determine hardness to any repeatable degree. IF you think you're going to be doing a lot of casting in the future, a hardness tester of some sort is the best solution. The LEE hardness tester is ok. You could even make something yourself, a round or conical hardened steel weight dropping onto youe sample ina repeatable manner wouldn't be that hard to calibrate. I've got a few ideas in my head that I'm going to try some day. :)

Without a hardness tester, you have to go with what you do know:
  • Pure/amost pure lead in the form of piping, roofing material, x-ray shielding - is quite easy to recognise.
  • Generic clamp on wheel weight runs between 12-13 BHN.
  • The various solders are identified by alloy content and are a known content.
  • linotype is 10-12% antimony

For BP you want the pure or very nearly pure lead.
For antique/vintage (19th century) guns shooting under 800 fps, half pure and half coww works well.
For modern pistol bullets (9mm, 45, etc) pure coww works ok.
If you need harder bullets, you need to add antimony. Tin doesn't really make bullets harder.

Mix or blend a small batch, cast and shoot it. If it works ok, then you can make more of the same. But once it's mixed, you can't un-mix it.
 
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Stick on wheel weight are not all soft. The ones that look like tape and are cut are normally soft but the ones that are molded into shapes you brake apart are not as soft (I put these in with COWW) There are also zinc, steel, plastic and other mixes that stick on to watch out for.

Ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LASC and Castbolits are good online resources. Lyman Cast #3 is an excellent resource.

You need a good thermometer, a hardness tester is pretty invaluable as well.

Some important facts that are valuable to know:

Pure lead melts and solidifies @ app 620 F

63/37 lead tin solder is eutectic, melts and solidifies @ app 360 F

Linotype; 84/12/4 is also eutectic @ app 464 F

You can always use pure lead to check the calibration of your thermometer, and to confirm pure lead.
 
Ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LASC and Castbolits are good online resources. Lyman Cast #3 is an excellent resource.

You need a good thermometer, a hardness tester is pretty invaluable as well.

Some important facts that are valuable to know:

Pure lead melts and solidifies @ app 620 F

63/37 lead tin solder is eutectic, melts and solidifies @ app 360 F

Linotype; 84/12/4 is also eutectic @ app 464 F

You can always use pure lead to check the calibration of your thermometer, and to confirm pure lead.

Hey, thanks!

I was wondering if melting temperature would tell you something about composition.

M
 
I had one hint or tidbit that will give you a jump on the whole casting shtick. If you take your collection of COWW (Clip On Wheel Weights), and sort out all the none lead ones, you will have a pretty decent alloy to cast most pistol and rifle bullets. When you melt them, bring the temperature of the melt up to 620 F and flux, you should have a fairly clean alloy to work with. All the dirt and steel clips will have floated to the surface shortly after melt occurs and they are easy to skim off and discard in a metal container. Anything foreign or not melted at 620 F should be skimmed off and discarded. After the first flux there will be more dross to skim off. The trick is not to exceed 620 F by too much for smelting.

After smelting I pour the alloy into ingots for later use. To cast I take the ingots and melt them, again bringing the temp up to 620 F, after which you can flux and skim or skim first if the alloy melt has too many foreign floaters.

When melting ingots, the most common advice is not to skim off the dross before fluxing as you will "loose the valuable alloying metals, tin Sn and antimony Sb". Although true, it's been my experience that after the initial smelt, on the first melt if you skim at 620 F, you get a much cleaner alloy. Usually, there is only a spoon or 2 of discard, and I've found that the melt is a bunch cleaner. After that the standard flux and skim work fine.

When you are ready to cast, raise the temp to about 700 F or to whatever temperature gives you good bullets, but try not to exceed 750 F, which is approaching the temperature at which lead vaporizes.

There is a lot more to it than that, but this will fast track you, and get you decent bullets.

Alloy analysis is easy with a XRF gun, most recycling depots have one, and you may be able to find a business near you that has one. My preliminary search did not find any near Winnipeg.

There are telltale indicators of alloy composition, bullet weight, hardness, smooth sprue, fractured sprue, shinny bullet, dull bullet, bullet detail and so on.

If you cast with COWW, you can get harder bullets by heat treating. Another trend is to powder coat your bullets, which will make a cast bullet behave like a plated or jacketed one, or so I've heard. I do not powder coat yet.

When I started down this rabbit hole, I bought cast bullets from commercial casters, learning how to load and shoot cast, and to find suitable mold designs. Most molds are expensive (the iron ones), and you don't want to buy a bunch just to find the right design for your application. There are cheaper molds (aluminum), that work OK, and perhaps that is a good way to get into the game with the least amount of cash outlay. I have both iron and aluminum molds, each has their idiosyncrasies, and each will make bullets.

Buying used molds is a craps shoot, and can be a pig in a poke, I don't like to pay too much, as there can be issues.

I'm very new to the casting game, and far from being an expert, but I have had some pretty good successes, like a 150 gr Loverin bullet that shoots like crazy in my son's 7mmx57, a couple of good 30-30 bullets, a 38-55 work in progress, 357 and 44 handgun bullets and some nice 35 Rem bullets. Most of my successes are of the gas checked design. For the beginner, good results are easier with a gas checked bullet. A plain base bullet bullet seem to require a bit more planetary alignment and Zen at first. After you get the scientific stuff out of the way, the rest is more of an art.

There are a few scanned books out there, search for "cast bullets by Harrison, NRA" and the LASC site is good as well. Also search for articles by Fryxell, Harris and Kelter.

Safety first, you are working with 700 + molten metal, you do not want a visit from the tinsel fairy. Welding gloves are inexpensive and a leather welding jacket or leather apron is also a good investment. Face shield, welding cap, work boots, and whatever else you think will keep you safe.
 
Lead doesn`t boil(ie vaporize) til U get to 3182F(Clark`s tables & wiki). Dust ie oxides, chloride, sulphates, etc. are the main danger while sorting and skimming dirty lead scrap.
 
After this morning casting session, I tracked temperature until the alloy solidified. Looked like between 500F and 520F.

Then I found this.

pb-lead-mixtures-melting-points.png

The alloy I was using is supposed to be 7% Sb, 2% Sn. So the melting point temperature observed and this chart appear to agree.

In any event, moving forward, I ordered a hardness tester.

M
 

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In order to get a consistent alloy with a batch of lead I bought a few years ago I used a large Dutch Oven to melt everything in. I used an aluminum spoon from Value Village, and skimmed all the crud off the top as it melted. Do not use your good melting pot for the rough melting process. I did this once and the bottom pour nozzle hasn't been quite right since...

I store all my lead in surplus ammo cans, and every ingot is stamped with a Princess Auto metal stamp. PB for pure, WW for wheel weights, and SN for the ingots that have a high tin mix to the alloy [this lead came from soldered joints in a bunch of plumbing lead: very high tin content]

It shouldn't cost you too much to get into this, I certainly did it on the cheap with shopping thrift stores and making my own ingots that just fit into 50 cal ammo cans.

I would keep all of your leads separate until you figure out what the hardness really is. I shoot straight wheel weights in my hunting rifles, and if I'm paper patching I've been trying pure lead lately. I have some mystery lead, too, that I don't use for my hunting loads, but I do save it for fishing sinkers.

Good luck
 
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