Speaking of skullduggery .... how about Longbranch rifles?

BadgerDog

BadgerDog

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Location
Toronto, Canada
Here's a bit of fun for you Enfield folks.... :)

If you're going to collect some of the really expensive old girls, "Caveat Emptor", plus make sure you spend a lot of time studying references and pics of righteous examples.

Check out this expired GunBroker Auction (click here)http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44268939 for a listing that says Enfield No 4 MK I T Sniper rifle Long Branch, which sold for $3,776.26 U.S. (no scope can, transit case or accessories).

Ad Text:

Yes this is an original Canadian Long Branch No4 T Sniper rifle. The rifle is in excellent condition with an excellent bore. The wood has been polished which is probably not original. The butt-stock serial # on top of wrist matches the serial # on the scope. Serial on receiver matches the bolt, mag, and fore-end. THIS IS NOT A REPODUCTION OF A SNIPER. It is original and did not come with a rear sight. The scope is British made and the mount is very rough, (the repro’s are not as rough finish). Everything on this rifle works as it should and it shoots very well. I bought it from a guy who had it in his collection for several years.

[Information added 02/24/2006 1:12:38 PM]
The scope is clear and dated 1945 as is the rifle.

[Information added 02/25/2006 11:48:00 AM]
The rifling is 5 groove.
Click to expand...

Study the pics and tell us what you think and especially note the text phraseology used in the ad. The question for you budding sniper rifle collectors is, would you buy this rifle (yes/no and why), as well what would you have bid?

Regards,
Badger
 
Last edited:
You brought it up so there must be something fishy (I dont have a scratch and sniff monitor)

If I saw that here in Canada...I would trade a kidney and a spleen for it...
($2500 ish)

Im gonna say something like "there were NO Longbranch snipers...?"
 
ok the scope is brit could be a replacment IF the mount(which was mated to gun) was canadian which it's not the forewood is savage but that could be correct BUT i don't see the maltese cross on it or on the pads they did come with rear sight with the battle apt ground off the pics suck and I can't see if it's marked with an s on the receiver (not sure if we did that or just the brits )i'd love to pull the butt and see if it's numbered on the flat again I'm not sure we did that like the brits .not sure of the "T" stampingeither would like a closer look what would i pay? if I could give it a really good look i might go 2500.00 BUT it's a big might I know I could recoup a bit by parting it out but I wouldn't buy it for that
 
Pad screws aren't staked. Hole for the rear fixing screw drilled right through the receiver.(!) Think its highly unlikely this rifle and scope left LB together.
 
First, lets get rid of some red herrings:
The T does not have to be the droopy kind as most of the LB rifles were stamped later, but since this one is questionable, I guess any T stamp would do.
The Canadian snipers did not have the S nor the TR markings. These were products of H&H, so if they did appear on this rifle, that would make it even more suspect.
The lack of stake marks means nothing either, as this was a post war modification. The rifle could have been released prior to the staking modification.

Now for the pertinant stuff:
The serial number (as was mentioned before, is a 44 serial on a 45 receiver) is in the range of the allocated sniper serial numbers. The serial on the butt is someones add on; the origional scope should have been a REL. There is no chance that a rifle would have gone to Britain to get mated up with a Brit scope.
The lack of iron crosses is worrisome as well. My 45 LB sniper only has one that I can find, mind you.
I haven't had the guts to remove the butt on mine to see if the second number is there.

As to value, even if the rifle is a fake, it still has the following values:
scope= $1100
bracket (if origional) =700
pads=150
cheek rest (if origional) $75
rifle= 200-400, depending on condition.
 
I would say it's not a fake, but likely it's a real sniper rifle and areal scope that started out life separately and were mated recently. Some enterprising individual found a scope and then deeply stamped that scope's serial into the LB's wrist, probably over old numbers. Also, if you look hard, the bolt handle has been re-numbered in correct font, so possibly also a post-war refurbed sniper? Something done at the unit level? Dunno.... would need to see in person.
 
I would say it's not a fake, but likely it's a real sniper rifle and areal scope that started out life separately and were mated recently.
Click to expand...

I would almost agree except for the date on the receiver. While you can get a 45 batch of serial numbers on a 44 receiver, it is kind of hard to go the other way around. Maybe it's like the proverbial 200 year old axe; all origional except the handle and axe head have been replaced.
On a positive note, the knurled sight bracket knobs appear to be of the Canadian type, with the pilot hole in the center of the knobs. The broad arrow on the bracket does not neccessarily make it a non-cdn manufactured bracket. If a rifle was for British contract, it well could have left with broadarrows vice the C/i\. But since the scope bracket shows signs of renumbering (the origional serial number has been barred out) it is unlikely that the scope is properely collimated to the rifle.
 
Somebody liked it to the tune of $3776.26.
I don't think the scope serial was overstamped on the wood.

Oh and by the way, why would the hole for the rear fixing screw NOT be drilled all the way through thre reciever????
 
John Sukey said:
Somebody liked it to the tune of $3776.26.
I don't think the scope serial was overstamped on the wood.

Oh and by the way, why would the hole for the rear fixing screw NOT be drilled all the way through thre reciever????
Click to expand...

I meant to say the same thing. All snipers I have seen, including LBs, had this hole all the way through. I think they would be hardpressed not to go all the way through, and then a blind hole would trap dirt in it, making more trouble down the road.

The price says something too. It wasn't that many years ago I saw a LB sniper and REL scope go for $1200 on auction arms ($1700 cdn back then). BDL was selling a couple down there for $5K, so it would seem that the buyers in the US are more than happy to pay a premium for the Canadian made counterpart. I paid a premium for my LB4T, so it's good that I'm not the only crazy one.
Another example of the premium people would pay for Cdn is the price on ebay recently for a Cdn scope, bracket, and british can and adjusting tool: over $2000.
 
Too many parts are not correct, I don't have my serial number list for LB snipers handy so I'll take your word for it falling in the proper range.

I think it was a sniper but missing parts, then parts were found and the rifle redone as near as possiable to spec.
 
I have seen a real longbranch with the brit tags (years ago) with a brit scope with a longbranch mount the tag read replaced damaged scope as far as that goes it was the mount that was mated more so then the scope yes the scope numbers were added and it was better IF the original scope stayed on the gun but they did get damaged,broke whatever .
 
Skippy said:
Seems like a lot of plausable guesses. Let's hear it BadgerDog.
Click to expand...

There's nothing of note for me to add partner, except you guys are awesome .......... :D

I had about 75% of the points made, but I learned even more by listening to the exchange between stencollector, claven2, tiriaq, marks_36_harmon and john sukey.

Many of the folks who have responded here have forgotten more about these old girls than I'll ever know on my best day. I particularly like the way the some of the intellectual MASTERS of our milsurp hobby, share their knowledge with the rest of us in such an unselfish manner. Rarely, do I ever see any of them belittle other CGN members, when they post their "pride and joy" pics of a bubba'd piece that they thought was "all original". Class acts, one and all...... :)

This thread simply reinforces in my mind why this forum is such a great place to gather and share experiences. I hope it's still here long into my retirement.

I wish there was someplace we could collect and archive certain bulletin board threads like this, that help new collectors learn more about the pieces they see at gun shows and on-line. Maybe the winner of this Longbranch auction might not of bid if he'd been able to read this thread in advance. On the other hand, maybe he knew exactly what he was bidding on and the object was to get something that he could break up and sell as components at a total higher value. Who knows, but I hope he didn't bid expecting to be the proud owner of an authentic "all correct" Longbranch No.4 Mk1*(T) sniper rifle, because that's not what he's getting.

As an aside, I am working on a reference web site, where I hope to put up a series of photo montages of "righteous" pieces. In other words, it would be a free place for folks to go and compare markings and components of some valuable piece they're are looking at buying, against a similar piece that's already been vetted as "all correct" by some of our MASTERS here. I'm still in the photo taking stage (darn that's time consuming), but once that's done, I'll be chatting with a number of folks here and also from the U.S. boards, to see if I can enlist their help in certifying pieces that represent the good, the bad and the downright ugly. I sure bought a few of those while I was learning the hard way and hadn't yet learned about this place, or it's very experienced folks .... :D

Regards,
Badger
 
Last edited:
I'll admit it, I had no idea what I was talking about, I googled longbranch no. 4 sniper rifles and read a few of those sites :redface: . I did manage to take my little tidbit about the serial numbers from it all though. :D
 
happydude said:
I'll admit it, I had no idea what I was talking about, I googled longbranch no. 4 sniper rifles and read a few of those sites :redface: . I did manage to take my little tidbit about the serial numbers from it all though. :D
Click to expand...

Sounds like you'alls taking the Internet way too seriously....:(

D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom