Speer HotCors and BTSP

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byronick87

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Long story short; I’ve had one hell of a time trying to get a solid consistent grouping out of my Speer hotcors and BTSP at 100 yds.
I’ve tried 150 hot cors
165 BTSP
180 BTSP
I’m around around 42-45 gr of varget in federal GMM brass and CCI 200 primers
I’ve tried them in my Sauer 100, m70, and tikka t3x
None of them were able to shoot the speers consistently
Am I going crazy?? I’ve had very good luck with them years ago when they were I the yellow and black packaging.

have their tolerances gone down? I doubt it but…

I really want them to work because I’ve had nothing but great luck with them and I’m a big fan of not overly complicated marketing.
Let me know your thoughts and findings!
 
In 1976, I bought a new-from-store Winchester Model 70 in 308 Win. By about mid 1980's, I started to load 165 grain Speer HotCor bullets in it - RL-15 powder and Fed 210 primers - loads can be found in various Speer manuals, or nearly identical in Nosler manuals. There are several hundred bullets in "old boxes" still to use - and about 500 of the "new" black label with gold boxes - I have not started on them - all are Speer Part No. 2035. I hope Speer did not change them too much - I took many dozen head of game with those - our son has the rifle now and he has taken many head - mostly white tail and mule deer, although we each got our first elk with that rifle - like 20 years apart - using my hand loads and those Speer HotCor 165 grain bullets. I know I started with Sierra 165 SBT bullets - had one "blowup" on a whitetail's spine - killed that one "dead", but not what I wanted in a hunting bullet. Those Sierra bullets produced very nice looking targets, though. That unit is not particularly accurate - I never had a 5 shot group with Speer HotCor more than 1.5 inches at 100 yards, but only a few groups less than 1" at that range. That one deer taken with the Sierra bullet was also the only deer that I ever shot with a shell from the magazine - and I emptied that rifle many times, shooting at deer - the ones that I got were almost always with the round that was in the chamber - why I swapped to a Ruger No. 1 when our son left with that repeater.
 
Love it.

I’ve shot deer from 40yds to 350 yds with the trusty old speer hot or. Never had jacket separation or evidence that would indicate such. Clean exits, not much damage.

Love to brag about them with a big sht eating grin on my face when buddy with eldx etc has poor terminal performance.

just don’t know now if I can since I can’t print a group smaller than 1.5”

And for hunting, sure it’s acceptable, but also, as a reloaded who has printed multiple 1/4 MOA groups, it’s almost unacceptable
 
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It might help to recognize that the idea of a "group" tends to come from a target game - something to talk about? When you kill game, you tend not to do so with a "group" of shots - you normally do so with a single shot - that kills it, or at least gimps it up enough that you can get closer and finish it with a second shot. So, for hunting, you tend to want to know what is the target size - brain shot / chest shot / neck vertebra shot? And how close or far are you able to hit that - your abilities, your gear - every time - not just "most" of the time - that is how far you have to get to, before you shoot. My son and I used to "practice" off-hand shooting at the small town rifle range by putting 5 clay pigeons on the 100 yard backstop - fire from standing beside the shooting table. Often was 0 hits for 5 shots with our deer rifles and deer loads. Then, become common enough to get 3 out of 5 shots. I do not recall if either of us ever got 5 out of 5, but I believe there are shooters with ability and gear that will do so. So, hunting and killing tends to be about knowing how close to get, to do the deed, for sure - "group size" might serve some other purpose.
 
OP, your load of "Varget" is quite hot and the cup and core bullets don't like to be loaded hot. The Hot Core bullets are "old school" cup and core.

Try reducing your load a few grains and see what happens.

A few grains won't make much difference in velocity, but may settle down harmonics.

If you want to load to maximum, instead of opting for Hot Core, go to the Mag Tip or Grand Slam.

You likely still won't be getting 1/2 in groups but you should be able to get consistent 1 inch groups.

I like W748 with the bullets you are using and assume they're being loaded in a 308Win. case.

My load with W748 is 45.0 grains with 165 grain Speer Hot Core bullets, over CCI250 Magnum primers.

W748 will give you similar velocities, but with much lower pressures, as it has a longer pressure curve.

I use it with the Mag Tip and Grand Slam bullets as well.

W748 is likely difficult to find right now, but something similar such as H380 is usually available.
 
Have you tried a different powder ? , different case ? Different primer ? Coal ? To say they dont shoot when just using the same components is hardly a fair shake , personally ive never had luck with varget in 308 i tend to lean towards 3031 or either of the 4895s. Each rifle is going to have a a oal that it favors over the other , what is your twist rate thats also another variable in the equation. Speers tend to shoot extremely well and for the price you cannot complain
 
yeah I guess that should all be mentioned. I have tried different brand of brass, different seating depths, and a couple different powders. H4895 and imr4064. I usually start around .003 off the lands. Back and forth, in, out, pulling my hair out
Twist its 1:10 and 1:11
 
You are starting at 3 thousands from the rifling. That's little. If your cases are not exactly of the same length that might lead to different pressures and from there, different velocities and dispersion. Try 20-30 thousands in a hunting rifle. I never had any caliber not shooting Hotcors well, that includes 6.5x55, 270 win, 308, 30-06 and 300 win mag. ALthough Varget is standard in 308, Accurate 2520 and Ramshot TAC gave me better accuracy.
 
mimile said:
You are starting at 3 thousands from the rifling. That's little. If your cases are not exactly of the same length that might lead to different pressures and from there, different velocities and dispersion. Try 20-30 thousands in a hunting rifle. I never had any caliber not shooting Hotcors well, that includes 6.5x55, 270 win, 308, 30-06 and 300 win mag. ALthough Varget is standard in 308, Accurate 2520 and Ramshot TAC gave me better accuracy.
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To follow along on this - the Woodleigh reloading manual talks about .020" to .040" off the lands for their bullets. I read about, but never used solid mono-metal bullets that might want .070" or more, off the lands. .003" is really "tight" for a jacketed bullet? If Speer bullets are at all like Woodleigh bullets, even .015" would be "tight". I also read of old school cast lead target shooters that would engrave their bullets into the rifling - as part of their black powder loading sequence - but that was pure cast lead, not jacketed, bullets.
 
byronick87 said:
I’ve tried 150 hot cors
165 BTSP
180 BTSP
I’m around around 42-45 gr of varget in federal GMM brass and CCI 200 primers
I’ve tried them in my Sauer 100, m70, and tikka t3x
Click to expand...
Sounds like a lot of testing if you went through the whole load development procedure for each rifle
Maybe find the commonality and change that

col is the last variable to fuss with imo, load to saami and try maybe
 
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Potashminer said:
To follow along on this - the Woodleigh reloading manual talks about .020" to .040" off the lands for their bullets. I read about, but never used solid mono-metal bullets that might want .070" or more, off the lands. .003" is really "tight" for a jacketed bullet? If Speer bullets are at all like Woodleigh bullets, even .015" would be "tight". I also read of old school cast lead target shooters that would engrave their bullets into the rifling - as part of their black powder loading sequence - but that was pure cast lead, not jacketed, bullets.
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PotashM, when I was shooting HBR, the 308Win was my choice of cartridge. In these rifles, we had custom chambers which required necks to be turned, to fit in the chambers with .002 total overall clearance, just enough to allow the neck to slightly expand and shrink for easy extraction.

The bullets were all flat base and neck tension was just enough to hold the bullet while loading it. The rifles were basically single shots so bullets moving back wasn't an issue.

We didn't worry much about OAL, because the bullets were always seated far enough out so they would engage the leade and be pushed back slightly into the case neck, when the bolt was closed. This always gave us the best accuracy.

This would not be a good idea for a hunting rifle, of course.

Many people don't realize the reason for the length of the neck.

Back in the day, the case designers utilized the necks to hold the bullet true to the center of the axis of the bore, or as close as possible and still maintain trouble free loading.

The case necks were long enough to be able to hold the long for caliber bullets tightly but still be able to "guide the bullet's base" in such a manner the bullet base was still being held by the case neck as it engaged the leade.

If the OP's rifle has a "short" throat, he should be OK that close to the leade, but you folks are right, some bullets prefer a bit of a jump before engaging the leade.

My question for the OP is whether or not he's full length resizing each time he reloads.

He's getting strange results. I use Speer Hot Core, Mag Tip and Grand Slam in three different calibers in a dozen different rifles and accuracy is always acceptable, and I'm fussy about accuracy.

I do find, especially with the old school cup and core projectiles, which the Hot Core bullets are, that they don't do well when loaded to maximum pressures and velocities.
 
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Try different powders. All 3 guns you mention may or may not like varget. Each gun will have a different velocity node you will have to chase to get each one shooting to their best. You need a chronograph. Maybe you do?
 
Shedmaster said:
Try different powders. All 3 guns you mention may or may not like varget. Each gun will have a different velocity node you will have to chase to get each one shooting to their best. You need a chronograph. Maybe you do?
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It's not just about velocity, chamber pressures and burning curves play with harmonics and those have to be matched as well to the rifle.

Some rifles with powders with longer but lower pressure curves will often show faster velocities.

When some of the "new at the time" powders first started appearing on the markets, such as Superformance (excellent powder) it often gives better velocities at lower pressures than IMR7828, simply because the pressure curve at the top of the burn rate is a millisecond longer, even though they have close to identical burn rates on the charts.

Accuracy relies heavily on consistent "HARMONICS" IMHO, much more than it does on velocity.
 
bearhunter said:
It's not just about velocity, chamber pressures and burning curves play with harmonics and those have to be matched as well to the rifle.

Some rifles with powders with longer but lower pressure curves will often show faster velocities.

When some of the "new at the time" powders first started appearing on the markets, such as Superformance (excellent powder) it often gives better velocities at lower pressures than IMR7828, simply because the pressure curve at the top of the burn rate is a millisecond longer, even though they have close to identical burn rates on the charts.

Accuracy relies heavily on consistent "HARMONICS" IMHO, much more than it does on velocity.
Click to expand...
That bottom line you mention is what I was trying to say. But couldn’t get the words right. Thx for the clarification.
 
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