"Square" shooting stance.

.223Rem

.223Rem

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I'm looking for some advice on proper shooting stances. I haven't had much time to get out to the range lately to see what works and what doesn't, and youtube isn't being much help.
I'm trying to figure out the right way to do things before I can get my AR out to the range (waiting on a scope mount), so I've been doing a lot of shouldering at home and trying to figure out whats comfortable.

I know it's probably a little different for everyone, but everything I've read pretty much says "lean forward, put your firearm side leg slightly back". I don;t know if it's because I'm tall and skinny but I'm finding that it only feels sturdy and comfortable if I really exaggerate it. I have my feet further apart (back leg toe if just behind front leg heel) and I'm leaning much further forward. (back leg, back, shoulder and neck form a straight line about 70- 75 degrees from the floor). Compared to the videos I've watched where the lean is very slight. I have my hips and shoulders perfectly square to the target as well.

I also find this stance comfortable with a handgun.

Sorry for the rambling post, I couldn't much on the internet and I'm trying to avoid bad habits right from the start. I could russel up some pictures of my stance later if anyone wants.

Any tips, advice, reading material or videos would be a huge help.
Thanks a bunch!
 
Take this with a grain of salt, I'm no expert.

IMO, it's kinda a waist of time to practice your stance until you get to the range to try it out. You may ingrain a bad habit, then have to spend a bunch of time fixing it.

You don't necessarily have to square your shoulders fully. This was made popular to keep a shooters plates oriented to the target when wearing armor. Most competition guys I see don't fully square their shoulders.

I do find that squaring your shoulders allows you to drive the gun better from target to target, left or right. It works for me.

I square my hips as much as possible but I really open my stance, at least 3/4 of a full stride length or more, with my left foot forward. Your feet should be placed in such a way that you can move, kneel, go prone as naturally and quickly as possible.

I bend at the waist some, but I find the more fatigued I get that bend gets less and less. By the end of a day of shooting, my stance is much straighter than when I started.

Basically, it sounds like you are on the right track, just go the the range test a few different stances out and see which one works the best for you. Then practice it at home until it feels natural.

Of course nothing takes the place of professional training.
 
Sounds basically reasonable but it will probably change some over time. The necessary muscles strengthen if you do it a lot.

I shoot from a slightly more crouched position than it sounds like you are describing, unless your knees are bent. If your rear knee is somewhere around 120 degrees, 180 being fully extended, then it sounds like you shoot similarly to me.

I square up to the target even without plates because, as Ken Hackathorn commented at a class, "if you get shot through both lungs, then unless it happened in the lobby of a trauma center, you are dead ####ing meat."

With the VZ I blade a little more than with an AR, just because there is slightly more recoil. I stay pretty square, but I do drop my OWS* back a bit.

*Other Weak Shoulder
 
Some would say that if you have a perfect stance then that means you arent moving. Ideally I'd say aim your body armour towards the Bad dudes.

-chris
 
misanthropist said:
Sounds basically reasonable but it will probably change some over time. The necessary muscles strengthen if you do it a lot.

I shoot from a slightly more crouched position than it sounds like you are describing, unless your knees are bent. If your rear knee is somewhere around 120 degrees, 180 being fully extended, then it sounds like you shoot similarly to me.

I square up to the target even without plates because, as Ken Hackathorn commented at a class, "if you get shot through both lungs, then unless it happened in the lobby of a trauma center, you are dead f**king meat."

With the VZ I blade a little more than with an AR, just because there is slightly more recoil. I stay pretty square, but I do drop my OWS* back a bit.

*Other Weak Shoulder
Click to expand...

Yeah my knees are flexed. What you describe sounds similar to what I do with my legs, but I know I probably don't bend at the waist as much as I should. Something I should work on for sure.

That's a good quote from Hackathorn. I don't think I blade much more with my VZ than my AR, but I don't have much video of myself shooting a VZ. Movement tends to change things a bit and for me reveals the true things I need to work on.

It's funny though, I just watched a video of myself shooting a shotgun drill. It was at the end of the day after almost 300 rounds and my lower body stance was pretty good throughout the movement drill, but my shoulders were a lot less square than they probably should be. I use a standard LOP stock on my shotgun which probably didn't help, that and the fact that my shoulder was pretty much hamburger at that point.
 
From your description of your stance it sounds alright, except don't try to square off your hips & shoulders if you're using a rifle or shotgun. That works for pistol, but not long guns. I don't really know for ARs, but it would probably depend on the length of the firearm (carbine vs rifle).

It's hard to describe on a forum. But remember that if something feels uncomfortable then it's not right.
 
Thanks, for the responses, sounds like im to far off the mark here. I'll try and get the CZ out and just start figuring out what feels right.
If anyone happens to have any youtube links I'd be more than happy.
 
If you want an accurate target shooting stance then it's going to be rotated. Rear foot +/- perpendicular to the target and front foot at a +/- 45 degree angle . That's a standing "skeletal supported" stance and the aim is to fire, absorb recoil and naturally return to target. Theory is, you can close your eyes, swing your body left and right a bit and come back almost to exactly where the target is if you have done it right.

This is how people shoot for accuracy. They are shooting at paper for lowest MOA or score.

Now, if you're a soldier/operator, or a wannabe operator (poser) then you will stand square to your target and present your plate to the opponent. It's not the most accurate way to fire regardless of how many times you do it but it's a trade off between hitting the target and a sucking chest wound.

The truth is every shooter is different and will find their in between. The important part is how steady your rifle is from start to finish and it's best to have an observer watching you from the side as you shoot. They will tell you what you are doing way before you figure it out for yourself.

Honestly, if you aren't being shot at and don't expect you ever will be..... Leave that gunfighter stuff for the pro's and the mall ninjas with their Barbie dressup AR's.

Going prone or supported behind cover owns stand up unless you are room clearing or get jumped inside 20 meters.

Personally, in a tinfoil hat SHTF scenario I'm going to try to smash your face with 7.62 outside your range of fire and from cover. I'm not looking at plate or center of mass and the stand up goon is my first target. :)
 
D 23 said:
If you want an accurate target shooting stance then it's going to be rotated. Rear foot +/- perpendicular to the target and front foot at a +/- 45 degree angle . That's a standing "skeletal supported" stance and the aim is to fire, absorb recoil and naturally return to target. Theory is, you can close your eyes, swing your body left and right a bit and come back almost to exactly where the target is if you have done it right.

This is how people shoot for accuracy. They are shooting at paper for lowest MOA or score.

Now, if your a soldier/operator, or a wannabe operator (poser) then you will stand square to your target and present your plate to the opponent. It's not the most accurate way to fire regardless of how many times you do it but it's a trade off between hitting the target and a sucking chest wound.

The truth is every shooter is different and will find their in between. The important part is how steady your rifle is from start to finish and it's best to have an observer watching you from the side as you shoot. They will tell you what you are doing way before you figure it out for yourself.

Honestly, if you aren't being shot at and don't expect you ever will be..... Leave that gunfighter stuff for the pro's and the mall ninjas with their Barbie dressup AR's.

Going prone or supported behind cover owns stand up unless you are room clearing or get jumped inside 20 meters.

Personally, I'm going to try to smash your face with 7.62. I'm not looking at plate or center of mass and the stand up goon is my first target. :)
Click to expand...

What is three gun considered? Goofy mall ninja or accurate shooting?

I still dont get why the microscopic shooting community in Canada cant get together and quit criticizing each other. When I see some guy with his car all modified like a race car I dont give a ####. Whatever giver him a boner. Who cares.

Buying all kinds of dressup kit for your AR's/rifles/pistols is what keeps 50% of our sponsor forums afloat. If everyone takes your opinions to heart then the firearms economy goes down the tubes buddy. There are entire stores that sell dressup #### and no guns. Why do you hate capitalism?

-chris
 
avocado said:
What is three gun considered? Goofy mall ninja or accurate shooting?

I still dont get why the microscopic shooting community in Canada cant get together and quit criticizing each other. When I see some guy with his car all modified like a race car I dont give a s**t. Whatever giver him a boner. Who cares.

Buying all kinds of dressup kit for your AR's/rifles/pistols is what keeps 50% of our sponsor forums afloat. If everyone takes your opinions to heart then the firearms economy goes down the tubes buddy. There are entire stores that sell dressup s**t and no guns. Why do you hate capitalism?

-chris
Click to expand...

It doesn't look like the OP is asking about three gun. It reads to me (and maybe I'm wrong) like he's looking for very basic AR shooting tips.

I offered what I believe is a good reply based on what I teach and have been taught over the last 20 years. You know, personal experience/observation vs. regurgitated internet BS.

So, I'll stick with learn the right way, then advance to whatever you want after you have the basics down. I did mention everyone will find their in between if one or the other doesn't work....

The rest of your dribble doesn't get a reply. Sorry.
 
What you say are the basic rules, however they change for everyone. I am in the Air Force, and whenever I go to the shooting range the Army guys (because they are always right) always tell me my stance is wrong when I'm shooting my C7. I try their method to appease them, and then my groupings open up. I go back to how I'm comfortable, and my groups tighten up again.

On ther other hand, I was shooting pistol like crap, and I tried the "army" method, and my groupings improved.

Sometimes the stance doesn't feel natural at first, but you do get used to it. You don't want to feel completly uncomfortable.

Also, keep in mind, if you look at military refrences, they tend to tell you to square up to your target because it gives your enemy a shot at the front rather than the sides. This is because there are metal plates on the front of the armour, and not on the sides. This is how they know and train, but may not suit you for your civilian needs. After watching a lot of those shooting shows on TV, it tends to be the amature guy with unorthodox methods that does better in the competition.

To Summarize; try everything.
 
This thread is going sideways fast....

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I like this one to illustrate the benefits of consistency across platforms (thanks to Earl for teaching me this concept)...
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furfaro said:
What you say are the basic rules, however they change for everyone. I am in the Air Force, and whenever I go to the shooting range the Army guys (because they are always right) always tell me my stance is wrong when I'm shooting my C7. I try their method to appease them, and then my groupings open up. I go back to how I'm comfortable, and my groups tighten up again.

On ther other hand, I was shooting pistol like crap, and I tried the "army" method, and my groupings improved.

Sometimes the stance doesn't feel natural at first, but you do get used to it. You don't want to feel completly uncomfortable.

Also, keep in mind, if you look at military refrences, they tend to tell you to square up to your target because it gives your enemy a shot at the front rather than the sides. This is because there are metal plates on the front of the armour, and not on the sides. This is how they know and train, but may not suit you for your civilian needs. After watching a lot of those shooting shows on TV, it tends to be the amature guy with unorthodox methods that does better in the competition.

To Summarize; try everything.
Click to expand...

Metal plates eh...
 
Thanks for the links Clobbersauras, I took the CZ out today and put 100 rounds down range, standing, unsupported at 25M.
I used the stance I described in my first post, with my feet apart, and leaning forward with my back leg in line with my back and shot better then I had before.
I found that as I started getting a little fatigued and that caused me to start to lose some of my forward lean- opening up my groups.

I'm still not shooting as good as I like but the muzzle rise and short LOP on the CZ are partly to blame. More range time and my much more comfortable AR-15 should bring some nice results.
 
Correct stance depends on what you are trying to accomplish. The traditional bladed offhand stance is best for maximum accuracy in slow, deliberate fire, but a more square stance is better for getting "good enough" hits fast at close ranges, as shown in some of the videos posted above. Body armour and/or exposing one's anatomy to hostile fire isn't the only rationale for the square stance.
 
Very true...if you are shooting and moving then you want a stance that allows you to move readily either as or after you break the shot.

If you want to stand and shoot at targets, slowly, then the traditional bladed stance mentioned above makes sense. That's not a type of shooting I do because if I want to shoot slowly at targets I generally have my gun resting across something, like my backpack. I don't do any standing precision fire because I find other positions allow for much better accuracy.

If you want to compete in a discipline that requires you to stand and shoot for precision then obviously D23's advice is practical.

If you want to compete in a different discipline it's not. So it's fairly dependent on what your goals are.

Naturally it's fairly clear from the OP that there is no specific plan to do standing precision competition so why anyone feels the need to criticise other approaches to shooting I am not entirely clear.
 
Yeah, I guess I should have been more clear as to what I'm trying to do. years of shooting off a bench has me getting really interested in a more dynamic shooting experience. Especially now that I'm getting in to handguns and black rifles.

I don't have my black badge yet but action shooting games like CQB, 3 gun and IDPA look like great fun, so I guess that's what I'm working towards.
 
My 2 cents for what they are worth:

The black badge course will give you lots of good basic information when it comes to safe pistol handling and stance/positioning related to IPSC shooting.

If you Google "IPSC Youtube 3 gun" you will get alot of home and professional videos that i found informative when practicing for IPSC.

I placed a static video camera beside me while practicing and was able to use that footage as a comparison to the stuff i watched on line so i could make appropriate adjustments.

90% of practice time spent at home practicing drawing, mag. changes and point of aim from different positions.

Its all about having fun at your chosen hobby
 
This is what I see on the CQB line:

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I suggest you get out and shoot a lot and try various positions and then settle on whatever works for you. Personally, my right foot is back, just like the other guys in the photo.
 
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