SS marked bayonet frog

[Light Infantry]

Hi Everyone!
Posted already on my favourite US board, now to see what this side of the border has to say:



Looking over some of my bayonets, I cam across an interesting frog. Doing some research I believe it is a M42 bayonet frog with an SS marking and an RZ marking in a circle with the letter M as part of the circle at the bottom

Wondering if anyone can shed some more history on this and possibly help confirm whether it is original or not. Some background to this. I purchased this off a war vet (not a bringback, just part of his collection). He didn't sell it to me as an SS frog/bayo, never any mention of it. I only recently discovered this as I was going through the box of bayos I got from him. I got these about 5-8 years ago, and he has had it in his collection for most likely 30 plus years. I normally would assume fake, (but the item not the story) but considering that he most likely had it for decades, it makes me wonder.


The bayo it cam with is marked COPPEL GmbH, serial # 9521e , 40 on the back spine of the blade, Hilt is marked with 2 WaA253 (or263). Scabbard is non-matching serial # and marked clc1942. Scabbard fits very loosely in the frog.

Can anyone shed some light on this frog and perhaps give me a ballpark figure on it.

 

[223762]

at first glance it looks like its in to good of shape to be real but i dont know..

Reidar from bergflaks lounge would be the person i would ask. he has solved many debates on the Wehrmacht-Awards site.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Fakery has been alive since WW1 and WW2!

Walt Disney in WW1 would paint German helmets in Camouflage Colored Paint Patterns so he could sell them for 15 to 30 times the amount as a German Sniper Helmet and have more spending money.
Same with GI's in WW2 trading their souvenirs long before they got home. SS Ink and Die Stamps meant more money on an item when trading.

What makes you think the SS and RZM Stamps are Good and are you sure the frog is real or repro??

 

[Brookwood]

Thank you for posting the pictures and asking questions before attempting to place a value on it, very gentlemanly of you - I wish more people would ask questions rather than boast based on nothing. There are many questionable details I can see on this item. One major detail I see that causes me concern is it is not marked in a manner consistent with known, authentic SS examples. From a thread on Wehrmacht-Awards.com about this very subject - "SS Markings are ONLY the kombination SS in a circle + contract number + year + RZM in a circle, for example SS 37/36 RZM" - thats a pretty absolute statement to make, but in this case it rings true. All documented authentic examples hold to this pattern.

There are many threads in the W.A. archives about SS marked frogs (with large format pics), I recommend you review them and if you still have questions, open a discussion about it, including posting the pictures you have above. Like any public forum, there are plenty of arm chair experts on that site, but on the opposite side of the coin some of the world's most respected researchers/collectors also contribute to the discussions. It is not the definitive resource for info on this subject, but it is by far the easiest to access - you're just a few key strikes away.

To answer your question directly about your frog, it is modeled in the style of a seldom seen M42 pattern that has little concrete information available about it. The only consistent 'fact' shared among several sources - this pattern first appeared in 1942. From there, the theories range from; A)attributed (but not definitively confirmed) to the SS, B) a possible variant made in small numbers for use with an E tool, or C) an 'experimental' model made in small numbers as a result of material shortages.

YMMV, best of luck with your research.

 

[CanadianAR]

I am fairly confident that it’s fake. The accepted M42 frogs I’ve seen have 4 rivets not two, and that marking is suspect at best, especially on a late war design.

 

[Steve1987]

Unfortunately it appears to be a recent reproduction, of course they decided to enhance it with "SS" markings. I can't think any late war German field gear was SS marked, only some of the early gear. If original that style of frog would likely only have a RBNr if anything.

German WWII leather even in mint condition typically has a bit of minor surface cracking, I suspect if you smell this one it will still smell like leather which would not be the case on an original.

Cheers,
-Steve