Stainless Steel Tumbling problems: need some advice here please!

Longshot338

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Hello fellow GunNutz,

I have been tumbling with Stainless Steel pins for over as year now. I have tumbled thousands of casings; rifle and pistol. I thought I had it all figured out. I was getting incredibly good results; the shiniest brass possible.

The last 2 batches have really got me scratching my head. The casings have come out with a sticky black residue. It was the same grey/black colour of the water; it is as if the carbon coming off the cases had formed a sticky paste. The brass went in the tumbler looking like dirty brass. It came out blacker than the laquered steel casings on Russian milsurp.

I am well aware of the importance of consistency when it comes to reloading. This consistency in my work transfers itself to everything; including tumbling. I can assure you I did nothing differently.

The problem came on suddenly. My batches have not been getting progressively dirtier. I rinse my pins after every batch, as well as the barrel of my tumbler.

I prepped the brass. I sprayed the cases with Hornady One-Shot lube. They were sized, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, and I reamed the crimp off the primer pocket of the 5.56x45mm PPU brass and deepened the primer pockets. I placed all 100 pieces of brass in my Thumblers Tumblers Model B. I filled 2 45ACP casings with Dawn dishsoap, and 1 45ACP casing with Lemishine crystallized citric acid. I dropped these in with the brass. I then added warm water till it covered the brass and tumbled for 4 hours.

This is a smaller batch than I usually do. As such there wasn't as much water. My measurements for the soap and Lemishine were the same as a big batch. the result was mostly stiff suds with little water, and the black casings. I initially thought there wasn't enough water to dissolve the crud; thus the black paste. I spent the rest of the evening hand-wiping the crud off the casings.

I did another batch today. I was using Norinco brass picked up off a muddy range. I had already tumbled the casings just to get them clean so they wouldn't scratch my sizing die. They were sprayed with One-Shot and sized, but no further prep work (these were destined for CQB ammo; thus plinker quality not match quality reloads. I don't like to spend time to prep brass that I wont get back again, and is getting burned at 35yds or less.) 200 casings total. I placed them in the tumbler with more water, and the same measurements of the soap and acid.

Same result. I am now hand-wiping another 200 casings...

I have cleaned and reloaded thousands of rounds in the last year. I have used the same procedure for all of it. I don't get it...

The scum appears to be the outside of the case only. Where the lube would be. Almost would make me suspect that the lube isn't coming off the case, and the carbon is sticking to it. But I have used this lube before. This is my third aerosol can of One-Shot I am on now. For anybody who has used it you know that means a lot of reloading. Never an issue before.

I had a 243Win casing stick in the die not too long ago. I narrowed the cause down to one of two things; either I didn't use enough lube or I didn't let it dry before sizing it. since then, I have become a bit more liberal with the lube, and definitely more careful in letting the casings dry before sizing them. As such, my brass does have a thicker coat of lube on it when it gets tumbled. However, I have tumbled several batches of these heavier-lubed casings without an incident before the last two batches.

Has anyone ever encountered a similar problem before?

Even if you haven't had this issue, but have some ideas for me to try, please chime in.

Thanks guys!
Alec
 
Well the most basic of troubleshooting is to run a batch with no lube prior to depriming/resizing.

If there is no residue I'd say you isolated the lube as being the cause.
 
Simple test, fill the tumbler with water, dish soap and pins, run for a few hours to clean the tumbler. Now tumble some cases that do not haves any Hornady One-Shot lube and see how they come out. One shot is a dry film lube and I never use it and always use a home made lanolin and alcohol spray or a lube like RCBS Case Slick Spray Lube.

NOTE, if you have dirty cases and do not use enough soap your cases can come out dirty. If you don't have sudsy water when done tumbling you need more soap, and the soap holds the dirt in suspension.
 
Same thing happened to me. My pistol cases came out silver, and the water was thick and black. I ran just pins and water for a few hours, and it was still a bit black. Did another rinse and it was a bit better again. Then I ran it overnight with just pins, some Sunlight, and hot water. It has been good since. I have no idea what caused this, as I didn't change a thing. It happened out of the blue. I live in the country and think maybe my well water had some extra iron, sulphur, sodium or something in it that day.
 
Is the inside of your tumbler coated with anything? If it's lined, maybe the lining is breaking down?

This. I had a similar issue as the OP. Dumped some Spray-Nine degraser plus H2O and tumbled with pins only for about an hour. Water came out black and sludgy. Washed out and refilled with a new batch of used brass plus Lemi/Soap, back to bright brass again!
 
I have a Thumblers Model B, and I have to clean mine from time to time or my brass comes out clean, but dark with lots of stains.
 
The problem is the One-shot lube... it combines with the dust to form the sticky black paste. I have had the same thing happen with small batches tumbled in walnut media and then cleaned by hammock rolling in a towel while spritzing with One-Shot... formed a gummy black goo... made a mess inside the dies... I now polish without the One-shot and then spray each loading batch lightly prior to loading... no more problem.
 
I have the similar setup as OP, and just reinforcing what other people have said.

1. Let the Hornady one shot dry overnight on the pistol brass before resizing, depriming and loading. I always do my brass in batches, and it takes 4-5 days to prep brass due to drying time of lube, and drying time of brass after tumbling. I use redding wax on rifle rounds to resize / deprime on a single stage press. I typically trim then run through the tumbler a second time to clean primer pockets, etc.

2. Clean out the inside of the tumbler. Don't use anything alcohol based in it, as it breaks down the rubber and dries it out over time. I don't use the lanolin/isopropanol mixes in the tumbler because of this.

I would suggest you're also tumbling way too long. I tumble for 1 to 1.5h and it's extremely clean - especially when I do rifle rounds which get tumbled twice, they look sparkly new.
 
I'm with Abman. Deprime with universal decapping die should be the only step to do before tumbling. Use very hot water. Should not have to tumble for hours, try 60 minutes and have a look, then 90 minutes of you're not happy. 4 hours is a long time. Good luck.
 
I would use more detergent. I found that this solved my problems with brass turning black. The water/detergent mixture is failing to hold the crud in suspension and it ends up back on the brass.

Laundry detergent seems to be a bit more powerful than Dawn in my experience. One of the Tide Pods seems to be about right for a 12lb tumbler barrel. I also throw in a small amount of car wash and wax detergent to leave a light film of wax on the cases to prevent tarnish. Just the wash and wax detergent (I tried Mother's brand) requires a large amount to be effective. I always fill the water to about 1-2" of the top of the barrel.

Keep in mind that if your water is hard, you will likely need substantially more detergent than you would with soft water.
 
Some great advice here, thanks guys!

To answer some of the proposed ideas:

No nickel casings. I only ever reload brass. The 2 batches affected were PPU once fired and Norinco white box once fired.

I used 2 45ACP casings full of soap; same as always. Ample suds; even with the harder water we have out in the country.

The tumbler I use is a Thumblers Tumblers Model "B". It has a thick rubber lining. perhaps it is degrading. I would have thought that would have been noticeable before with batches of brass being progressively blacker, but that was not the case. How could I determine if it is indeed a breakdown of the rubber?

Again; I do see how it could be the One-Shot lube, but why has this not been an issue for the thousands of other rounds lubed with One-Shot that I have tumbled?

As for depriming only: I like to tumble AFTER I have fully processed the brass. This removes all the case lube and brass shavings from the brass. In addition, I reload on a single stage press, including pistol rounds and all my CQB ammo. That is a lot of reloading for a single stage. Using a decapping die just adds a ton more time that I would like to avoid. I do own a decapping die; I use it for casings that are picked up dirty. I will decap and tumble them briefly to get the crud off them so I don't wreck my dies.

I am interested in trying the shorter time. I have always tumbled for 3-4 hours simply because that was how i was instructed to when I got into SS tumbling. Never thought to try differently. I will give it a go now for sure.

SoylentD: You bring up great points. I dry my One-Shot lubed casings for 5 minutes before sizing. You let them dry overnight? Why? I understand the dangers of sizing brass when it is still wet, but I have never had a stuck case with 5mins of dry time. The only time I have had a case lubed with One-Shot get stuck is when I only gave it 2 minutes... I learned that lesson.

How should I clean my tumbler? SoylentD advises against alcohol based products; what then would you suggest?

Thanks again guys,
Alec
 
Is the inside of your tumbler coated with anything? If it's lined, maybe the lining is breaking down?

That is exactly what I was thinking. The Thumler is rubber lined. One common item that can have a negative effect on various rubber compounds is oil, or other various organics.
If that is the case, you may have damaged the surface of the liner permanently.
 
Is the inside of your tumbler coated with anything? If it's lined, maybe the lining is breaking down?

Soap/water/Lemishine should not be harming the rubber of a tumbler barrel. If you were tumbling your brass in Varsol, it certainly would!

I find that the barrel is pretty much self-cleaning if you rinse it out after every load. I would use more detergent if you are getting buildup on the inside of the barrel.
 
If you want to get your stainless pins back to "new" condition do the following:
Run only the the pins with water and a couple of teaspoons of TSP Trisodium phosphate .
You can get this at Canadian tire in the paint area. Only run the pins; not with any brass.
Let this go for an hour or so then rinse very well your tumbler and pins.
The next time you process brass you will be amazed!!
sm
 
I use " Lyman Quick Spray Lube ", which is water rinsable, according to the label.

It is the best to date, I use it with cold water and I found if I added some lemon juice concentrate, it really polished the brass.

A through rinsing followed the cleaning.

I did not like the lanolin based lubes as they tended to leave a film on the cases.
 
I typically let the one shot sit overnight, because that's just how I batch brass jobs. I honestly don't know how long it takes to actually dry, but on a few reloading courses it was warned multiple times to allow it to dry as it's a dry film lubricant. The directions state one minute, but it's still wet at one minute. I cover my brass in clear bins so dirt and debris don't get stuck to the casings also.
The one time I cleaned my tumbler, I used G96 cleaner. It's something I have on hand and worked well. It was kind of a pain to get out after it cleaned it though, have some paper towel on hand.

I'm completely OCD when it comes to cleaning brass, I pre-clean rifle brass for 45min in the tumbler before lube/resize/deprime then trim (on dillon 650 w cutter). I run it through the tumbler a second time to clean out primer pockets and the inside better, for 1h. For pistol brass, I don't trim casings and only do one tumble cleaning before lubing, etc.
 
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