Standard vs. Open

Hi,

Other than some technical details re ammo power, the main difference is that shooting in Std division, you are not allowed to have compensators or optical sights on your guns.

So, if by 'easier' you mean easier physically, I believe that a nicely tuned Open gun will give you less muzzle flip (but more noise, haha) than an equally well tuned Std gun. However, if you mean easier from a scores point of view, they are both equally tough.

Remember - division selection only specifies whose scores yours will be compared against - everyone shoots the same course of fire, the same level of match difficulty applies to everyone. With experience, you will become aware of small differences in divisions and how good shooters in each one might differ in their strategy/etc, but for now, it doesn't matter.

Ohhh, another thing - if by 'easy' you mean easy to get a gun that works, easy to get ammo for it, then you might want to look at joining us in the Production division - least expensive, most available ammo,and least expensive, most low-maintenance guns ;) I believe they are also the easiest to handle, physically, so if you have (for example) small hands, or weak arms, a Prod gun will probably be much less tiring to use than Open/Std.
 
katana_1127 said:
Hi,
I'm new to IPSC :redface: so I was wondering what is the difference between Standard and Open, and which is easier to shoot ?
katana_1127@hotmail.com
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How old are you?
If you're hitting those mid-high fourties plus, Open is easier as red dot sights are great for far sighted folks.

Really, the difference between Open and Standard is how fast you want to go... you will hit targets faster with an open gun than you will a standard gun. (but of course, your competition has the same type of guns too...)

Open guns generally cost more than standard guns, (more doohickeys) if cost is a factor.
 
omen said:
Hi,



Ohhh, another thing - if by 'easy' you mean easy to get a gun that works, easy to get ammo for it, then you might want to look at joining us in the Production division -
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That's it...you are now the official IPSC Ontario Production Pimp :cool: :p
 
To be good in open , you must basically be good in standard .
Standard is easier with ammo , open is quicker shooting ( better sights , less muzzle flip ) .
a standard gun is cheaper and has all the same basic controls in the same basic place as open guns .
on 1911 style guns you can also upgrade later to open with the same gun if you feel like going that far .
I started in production ( glock ) , this year I'm converting to standard ( para ) and if all goes well I'll go to open in a few years .
for me its crawl / walk / run thinking .
just my 2 cents
 
Well I believe it's easier to learn the game in Open then standard....not easier to do well, but the dot do give more time for the rest of the game....but yes the gun's are more finicky....but not impossible....reloading for Opem is the same as any other calibers ...cheaper then 40SW because of the bullets do cost less...but in 38 Super brass cost is another factor, but can be re-uses many times...
 
Ok, I say this with all good humour, and as a devout Open shooter... you guys are just giving us Open guys WAY too many straight lines:

"... if you have ... small hands, or weak arms, a Prod gun will probably be much less tiring"

and re production/standard/open I hear "its crawl / walk / run thinking"


Am I the only one who sees that its only the small, weak people crawling around who would shoot production? It takes a strong MAN to run in Open division.

-ivan-
p.s. You'll notice I say these things only from the comfort of cyberspace :)
-nomex flame suit on-
 
ivan said:
It takes a strong MAN to run in Open division
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I agree too, a skilled Open shooter has the challenge of overruning the thought process while shooting.

Run thinking - I like that...

I AM saying it with no negativity implied toward the other divisions, though...
 
ivan said:
It takes a strong MAN to run in Open division.
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Seeing how most of the UofT students whom I'm trying to get interested in ipsc are women with fairly weak hands/arms, yeah, they will definitely be staying away from open, as per your idea... :p
 
No NO NO! :D

The least felt recoil is in OPEN... Of course for many new shooters the noise/blast is a bigger issue than the actual felt recoil pulse.... Hmmmm...

As for Prod vs Standard... Well a reasonably well set up standard gun is very nice and soft shooting also. Easily as nice in 40 as any 9mm I've shot. And if you were to down load it to minor then it'd be nicer...

Of course the cost of the firearm might be a factor except you can get Armco prepped Norinc 1911s for way less than all but the most abused Glock. So Standard isn't necessarily more expensive....

None of them are "easier" or cheaper (well OK Open is a bit more expensive for the toys) in the end its all about what hardware you WANT to use and what circles you want to compete in.

The best shooters in any of the divisions are going to be among the best no matter what division they shoot in.
 
ok, I think we've left the original thread and started our own, but nothing wrong with that...

From my point of view (bring smaller framed people into ipsc), there are issues at hand other than muzzle flip. For example, simple weight. Compare the weight of a G17 loaded with 115gr ammo to an open or a std gun, loaded with much heavier bullets? In addition to the weight of the gun, there is the weight of the fully loaded mags hanging off your hip bone all day...
There aren't things which most people think about, because they aren't a factor for them, but are very relevant to the guys and (especially) girls I try to get interested in joining us. These people get tired from holding the Glock for 50 shots, how the heck are they going to handle a fully loaded SVI? ;)

I guess we all deal with issues from our own frame of reference, sometimes that closes our eyes to some factors which, while being irrelevant to us, are of major importance to others...
 
omen said:
Compare the weight of a G17 loaded with 115gr ammo to an open or a std gun, loaded with much heavier bullets? In addition to the weight of the gun, there is the weight of the fully loaded mags hanging off your hip bone all day...
There aren't things which most people think about, because they aren't a factor for them, but are very relevant to the guys and (especially) girls I try to get interested in joining us. These people get tired from holding the Glock for 50 shots, how the heck are they going to handle a fully loaded SVI? ;)
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Well, in Open, I only use 115 gr or 121 gr bullets, so we're even there. Plus, I bag all of my magazines and (whenever possible) bag my gun between stages, only putting them on when I'm soon to be up.

As for holding the Gun for 50 shots....My Open Gun may be heavier, but I have to hold it for about half the time that a Production shooter does. :p

I'm not exactly a big guy...half the girls that you bring out to shoot probably outweigh me. Heck, they could probably outwrestle me, too.

Seriously, though, the felt recoil and muzzle blast are an issue. To handle the muzzle blast, I always wear plugs AND muffs. ALWAYS. I'm the guy that can be heard yelling, "What?!?" at my friends sporadically during conversations.

The felt recoil on an open gun is way more than on a standard or production gun, but it seems like less to me because I'm not fighting the muzzle flip. I'm used to it by now, and the only problem is that the textured grips chew up my hands over a long season of shooting, but that's what I keep moisturizer and hand cream for...honest! ;)
 
No, in Canada we have an exemption to shoot 115's due to our proximity to the US. It's posted on the IPSC Canada website. http://www.ipsc-canada.org/exempt04.pdf (Although looking at it again, I wonder if we need to apply for new exemptions since we're on a new rule book....)

That's why I say both 115 and 121's....I had to develop a 121 load for the World Shoot last year.
 
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hungrybeagle said:
No, in Canada we have an exemption to shoot 115's due to our proximity to the US. It's posted on the IPSC Canada website. http://www.ipsc-canada.org/exempt04.pdf (Although looking at it again, I wonder if we need to apply for new exemptions since we're on a new rule book....)

That's why I say both 115 and 121's....I had to develop a 121 load for the World Shoot last year.
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Ah...

Funny that the exemption applies to the US where the PF for open is 5 points higher :confused:
 
The trouble with getting someone with less muscular stature shooting a light weight gun like a Glock is that there is more “flip” and “torque” from the gun because the weight is not there. Now add in a light weight bullet that has to move faster to make the power factor in a non compensated gun and you have increased the problem. A heavier gun helps to tone down both of these problems. Now add in a double stack with poor ergonomics and they will feel that the gun is going to twist right out of their hand.

When Cathy started shooting I had to learn a whole bunch about a woman shooting a gun. She is 5’ 2” and 135 pounds, so just about Hungrybeagle’s size. The first thing we found out was that a 45 felt like it settled back into the hand while the S&W model 59 in 9mm always felt like it was going to twist out of her hand. She started off shooting a 1991 45, with the smallest grips I could find. I even looked at just putting blast shields on with skate board tape.

When Cathy bought her open gun she said it was a powder puff compared to shooting the 45. It helped that it had a Swanson safety on it that sits a bit lower then a normal safety. About the only thing I had to do was change out the grips as the fellow who had it had hands the size of baseball mitts!

We (Cathy is a qualified BB instructor as well) have taught a number of women over the last few years. So far only one has preferred shooting a light weight gun over a steel gun. Almost all of them have felt that the light weight gun was going to twist out of their hand.
 
When I used the " crawl / walk / run " line I was refering to the ability of the shooter and their finacial comitment to the sport . In now way was I refering to the physical ability of the shooter . Personally I don't see a difference between the classes as far as physical conditioning goes ( except revolver :eek: ) .If you want to win you need to be in reasonable shape , or risk a heart attack in the attempt .
yet another 2 cents
 
Rapt said:
The least felt recoil is in OPEN
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Nope, felt recoil is at the very least, the same - but it is directed in another way - back into your shoulders and back and less in your arms and hands.

The Enos forum discussing the new "short" raceguns really talks about how they beat the crap out of your shoulders.

If I shoot a STInger for 300 rounds, after not going near a racegun for a month, my shoulders hurt. It may move lightening fast to other targets, but it pushes back like a bull.
 
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