Starting to load cast bullets for 45-70

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GcG166

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So ive been trying to get into casting and loadi g for my 45-70 for a while now with a move toa different province getting in the way. Getting back at it now.

Ive cast and shot a few bullets about a year ago then had to put that on hold. Back at it now. Have 3 molds, 2 lee woth no gas checks and 1 rcbs with gas check. Have the gas checks dies and all components. I do not have a bullet sizing die. Ive been oan lubing the few bullets have shot.

I just got the rcbs mold and gas checks today and realized today that something would need to be done to get the gas check to attach to the base of the bullets. From what i see you put the gas checks on the bullets and run them through the sizing die. So i will need a sizing die? If so how do i know whay size to get? Its a marlin lever action

Also my lead i have now is quite soft 12-13 bhn. i have harder stuff on the way. Just wondering about how fast would you think i could push this lead eother with or without a gas check.

Also any mire info from more experienced people would be great
 
I shoot a 450 Marlin (ballistic twin to the 45-70) and use 2 type of RCBS molds. #1 is the RCBS-45-300FN #2 is the RCBS-45-405FN, both are very good & designed to use a GC. You can install the GC using either a LUBRISIZER press , my preference, (Lyman/RCBS) or the cheaper way is with a PUSH THROUGH SIZER DIE from LEE. (CAUTION, as far as I know the LEE only comes in .457" and I prefer to use a larger .459-.460" diameter. You should be able to open it up using sandpaper and a wooden dowel, not perfect but it works).
The best accuracy FOR ME has been with alloys about 14BHN. SOFTER is better for hunting but several dead deer never said the harder alloy didn't work. IN MY OPINION 12-13 should work wonders, both on paper and deer. I only load to ABOUT 1600FPS as out to 100 paces they're ALL total PASS THROUGHs.
I stopped SIZING these bullets years ago and just cast, seat check, lube & load. Accuracy for me has been very very good at 1600 using 14 BHN.
 
Ill be going woth the cheaper route for now. You can get thwn in .459 and i believe. 458

So how do you seat the gas check without sizing the buillets.
 
If your AS CAST bullets are say...... .459, then use a sizer die that is the same size ORRRR open up the sizer to .4595", JUST so the bullet isn't being sized, thats all. For starers you can experiment with a die that sizes .458 to see if it will shoot well. MANY/MOST DO size their bullets when seating the checks, just depends on whether they perform as desired. I stopped sizing because I didn't see any improvement in accuracy, so I just seat the checks/lube/load. (Lyman Lubrisizer) However, MANY guys do size, you have to try it first to see if it works for your rifle.
 
big boar said:
If your AS CAST bullets are say...... .459, then use a sizer die that is the same size ORRRR open up the sizer to .4595", JUST so the bullet isn't being sized, thats all.
Click to expand...

So whats the point of running a .459 bullet through a sizer of the same size or one slightly bigger? What would this do to the bullet?
 
I use a .460 die - it just kiss the bullet and apply lube. Got the die from Buffalo Arms. It work perfectly in my win 1886 and my Sharp heavy barrel. Got the best accuracy at that diameter. I use 20-1 for my heavy (535 grains ) and strait wheel weight for the 360-405 grains. Brinells 9-10 on a Saeco lead tester.
Thats all there is to it. For some gun - .459 might work good but with .460 - almost as cast - seem the way to go.
 
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Yep true, I only use push through sizers and tumble lube or powder coat. Regardless, a sizer is pretty darn handy for applying a gas check
Both N.O.E. and lee work well.
N.O.E. have many more size options
 
Ok woth my gas check/bullet combo if i put the gas check on the base of the bullets it slides on easily and falls right off. Its not loose and wobbling around when its there but its not snug
 
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Well, the boys are confusing you with terminology it seems...Big Bear is SIZING his slugs when he uses the sizer to CRIMP his gas checks to the base of the bullet...it automatically sizes the gas check to .459 (or whatever sizer dia he uses). The proper gas-check sizing is what prevents gas escape in a GC bullet not bullet shank dia.. The bullet-bore diameters can still have a bearing on accuracy but the gas escape is subdued by the GC seal .

The short answer is that you need the sizer equipment to properly size the gas check .The proper sizing die for your rifle will only be determined after slugging the bore with a pure lead (5-6 BN) slug (I use muzzle loader balls of .54 caliber for all my slugging). Every Marlin rifle I have slugged has come out at .458 so I use .459-60 sized bullets in them ( so far they all that I have tried will chamber slugs powder coated up to .460)
 
fingers284 said:
Well, the boys are confusing you with terminology it seems...Big Bear is SIZING his slugs when he uses the sizer to CRIMP his gas checks to the base of the bullet...it automatically sizes the gas check to .459 (or whatever sizer dia he uses). The proper gas-check sizing is what prevents gas escape in a GC bullet not bullet shank dia.. The bullet-bore diameters can still have a bearing on accuracy but the gas escape is subdued by the GC seal .

The short answer is that you need the sizer equipment to properly size the gas check .The proper sizing die for your rifle will only be determined after slugging the bore with a pure lead (5-6 BN) slug (I use muzzle loader balls of .54 caliber for all my slugging). Every Marlin rifle I have slugged has come out at .458 so I use .459-60 sized bullets in them ( so far they all that I have tried will chamber slugs powder coated up to .460)
Click to expand...

Thanks. Just learing casting and its a bit confusing and a lot of info at once. Ill order a sizing die before i start loading
 
CUSTOM LUBE & SIZE KITS
Available factory direct for $38.00 plus S&H. leeprecision.com/custom-lube-and-sizing-kit.ht
My friends at Higginsons Powders in Hawksbury sell the whole LEE line. You can request a custom sized die to you liking from them.
Many 45-70 reloaders swear by .459 as the ideal size for cast bullets. Order the .459 sizer. When its set up, just add the gas check, run your bullet through the sizer & its on.

Personally, I bought the LEE .457 sizer which LEE recommends & had it opened up to .459. Range lead plus a dab of pewter makes my powder coated bullets around 10-13 BHN, & driving them to around 1600 fps. So I’m no bothering to use a gas check.
 
Hatman1793, so you're using a GC cast bullet WITHOUT the check and loading to 1600? I've only tried that to about 1000 and it worked, never tried to use them without a check over 1000 though. Is your accuracy on par with a GC installed????
 
I have 2 NOE 396gr molds. One is gas check and the other is plain base. At 1550 fps I can't even tell them apart as far as accuracy goes. Zero leading with tumble lube and powder coated. Needless to say I dont use the gas check bullets often.
I cast from half coww and half pure
These are cast and sized to .460"
I use the NOE case expanders to expand my brass to .458" much like a lyman M die
 
big boar said:
Hatman1793, so you're using a GC cast bullet WITHOUT the check and loading to 1600? I've only tried that to about 1000 and it worked, never tried to use them without a check over 1000 though. Is your accuracy on par with a GC installed????
Click to expand...

I quit using GC on my GC-based slugs after using powder coating for a while, could see no accuracy advantage at all and no leading with the PC so they basically became redundant...most of the loads I use are 1400 fps or under but have used some in a 30-30 up to 1700 fps with same results. Lead alloy I use is always COWW by itself or 1/2 WW-1/2 pure lead so BN will be somewhere in the 10-12 area.
 
The first thing you should have done but still can is go out and buy the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd or 4th Edition.

The 2nd thing to do is join The Cast Bullet Forum. There is enough information on that forum to last you a lifetime of learning.

Buy yourself a used RCBS or Lyman Lubricator. They both use the same dies. I make my own GC's out of either A;uminum sheeting or pop cans for some of my pistol and rifles bullets. With the Lubricator in hand with the proper die (Lyman or RCBS) you can simply place the bullet base down with the gc either hand pressed to the base or laying in the cupo of the die and push the pullet into the die until you feel the vc seat. Raide the bullet andyou are done. There is no need at that point to press the bullet fully into the die. If I want tosize by bullets fully, and most the time I do, I simply fully size them first THEN apply the gc as above. I found often as not if I try to push the bullet fullu into the die while applying a gc it sometimes gets caught on the interior of the die where the lube holes are and you end up with a mess. that is my experience others may have different experiences. It is all good.

Shooting unisized bullets is not uncommon. The user is simply letting the barrel do the work. I have seen it done often with old military rifles where the rifling is worn and/or pitted.

You have recognized you have lots to learn. Don't get discourage. The information you seek tends to build on itself. The one piece of advice I would give you is to buy as good a quality of core equipment you can afford eg. I have to lee push thru sizing dies for the 9MM and .357. Both dies size .357. One is marked .356 and the other .358. As it turns out I do size all my 9MM bullets .357. I have since acquired custom made sizing dies from a fellow in Montana. His dies cost a bit more but they size to the number on the die.

Take Care
Bob
 
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