STEEL fouling in an old milsurp's barrel ?

RobSmith

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Just curious if anyone has ever experienced such a thing, since a lot of military ammo is/was steel-jacketed, it should be safe to assume that it would leave some sort of residue along with the usual copper/lead/powder mix. I've been trying to clean up an old 1917 dated no1 mk3* sporter for some time now with mixed results.

On a recent trip to the US I bought some of the latest and greatest gun cleaning products I could get my hands on. One can each of hoppes elite foaming bore cleaner and break-free bore cleaning foam. So out comes the ol' 303 for a test run on those. The gun is unfired by me and after cleaning with the regular stuffs I use the barrel looked pretty much perfect except for <one> slight raised spec of rust about 2/3 down the barrel that just wouldn't budge, I could live with that. So I applied a CLP soaked patch and put her away.

I hadn't touched it for a few months so I decided to have a go at it with the new miracle stuffs to see if they could lift out crap that the other stuff left out. First came the hoppes, nice environmentally-friendly pump, the "foam" has about the consitency of soap suds, application is a real PITA, the tube that comes with the can really isn't long enough so instead of going down the bore the foam just comes right back out the chamber. After waiting the recommended time I pushed the "foam" out with a dry patch and it did come out slightly bluish so it would appear to lift out <some> copper deposits.

I sent down several dry patches to dry out the barrel and out came break-free. The foam is much thicker, about the consistency of shaving cream and the long tube and quite powerful aerosol can sends the stuff down the bore with authority, in fact some of it flew out the barrel clear across the room !:redface: After the first application the outgoing foam came out DEEP BLUE and so did the patch, that stuff WORKS ! A quick peek down the barrel and to my horror the <one> small spec of rust has multiplied and they were now all over my precious bore !

2 more applications later, scrubbing with a bronze brush and countless dry patches and those specs just wouldn't budge, so out came the hoppes "tornado" brush and some CLP, problem solved in a dozen or so passes. After 2 days and about a dozen application of the break-free stuff I've come to realise that my bore is most likely covered in layers of crud dating all the way back to WW1, as my patches are still coming out just as dirty with no end in sight. Today will be day 3 of my cleaning attempt. This all got me thinking, could the rusty spots that I say back in day 1 actually be the remnants of steel jackets from period military ammo lifting out along with the other crud ?
 
Never heard of steel fouling and I doubt it occurs.

My real reason for posting is to caution you against applying the foam while the barrelled action is in the stock. The stuff removes finish! I learned the hard way. :(
 
Andy said:
Never heard of steel fouling and I doubt it occurs.

My real reason for posting is to caution you against applying the foam while the barrelled action is in the stock. The stuff removes finish! I learned the hard way. :(

Wood finish or metal finish ? The reason I used the ol' 303 for testing is precisely to check for that. I puposedly left some of the foam on the barrel and metal finish seems unaffected. Wood finish, just like any other cleaning product, it WILL make a mess of it if you get it on there and don't wipe it off immediatedly.
 
Hmm... I've never had problems with the Outers foam removing metal finish?? But then I seat the tube into the throat and none comes back into the action.
 
Rob. I have found after such attempts at cleaning fouled bores as you described can be a real challenge. After cleaning as you described and still getting out gunk I will scrub the crap out of the tube with JB's bore paste. This will usually help get most of it out. On bores that are pitted and rough I have also used FLITZ metal polish (caution with this one as it is a abrasive). If these attempts dont work I just shoot the thing and clean as normal while trying to ignore what is coming out on the patches. I have had some real rough bores that still shot well.
 
The silver bullets are cupronickel jacketed. Nickel fouling is a lot more serious than copper. In the day, strong ammonia compounds or abrasives were used. Moly greases were sometimes applied to reduce nickel fouling. Sometimes steel bore gauges were used to measure fouling buildup. I am unaware of any steel jacketed small arms ammunition without a cladding on the steel. The electronic bore cleaning systems can be used to remove old metal fouling. Doesn't mean that there won't be corrosion under the fouling, though.
 
muzzle flash said:
Rob. I have found after such attempts at cleaning fouled bores as you described can be a real challenge. After cleaning as you described and still getting out gunk I will scrub the crap out of the tube with JB's bore paste. This will usually help get most of it out. On bores that are pitted and rough I have also used FLITZ metal polish (caution with this one as it is a abrasive). If these attempts dont work I just shoot the thing and clean as normal while trying to ignore what is coming out on the patches. I have had some real rough bores that still shot well.

Well ... Since I'm sitting here at home with a bad case of gastro, a pack of 200 patches and not much else to do, I guess i'll spend the aftenoon using the traditional methods and see if it helps. The bad news is that my bore seems to get "frostier" with every patch, the good news is that they still come out filthy, so hopefully this is just another layer of crud. I have no doubt that she will shoot much better than I do, just like all my other firearms:redface: , when this is all over.
 
chupac said:
Read Hatchers Notebook. 'Steel' or more accurately Cupronickle clad bullets were know to foul bores worse than copper jacketed bullets. I prefer to not use them too much for several reasons including fouling.

I have never come across a true steel jacketed bullet that wasn't clad in some gilding material.... impractical as it would start to oxidize and rust as soon as it left the factory.

just my 2cents


two different things. Germany especially did jacket with mild steel in both world wars, but it generally had a copper wash on it to prevent rust. Sometimes it could be lacquered instead but this was less common. I'm not familiar with any case of steel fouling, and anything that would remove it would also remove barrel material, though being mild steel it would be more susceptible to abrasion then the harder barrel steel....
 
Lee Enfield said:
Ammonia based bore cleaners were developed to remove stubborn "cupro-nickle" jacket fouling.

It tended to flake according to reports, causing accuracy to degrade rapidly.

Maybe that would explain some of the mystery "specs" that seem to come out of nowhere down the barrel then. I've been at it most of the day, still some "slight" blue on the patches but things are mostly muddy brown by now ... Hopefully this is powder fouling and not the beginning of a rusty bore showing ...
 
chupac said:
Read Hatchers Notebook. 'Steel' or more accurately Cupronickle clad bullets were know to foul bores worse than copper jacketed bullets. I prefer to not use them too much for several reasons including fouling.

I have never come across a true steel jacketed bullet that wasn't clad in some gilding material.... impractical as it would start to oxidize and rust as soon as it left the factory.

just my 2cents


I think if you start with a well lapped bore fouling would be negligable with cupronickle jackets. The swiss used them for decades in the 7.5x55 without any complaints, and the K31's I've seen have fantastic bores.

Rob, best thing you can do is go shoot that old .303. Put a box or 2 through it, then clean it. Will make it a whole lot easier to get the old grime out.
 
I agree. I have a Turk Mauser that has seen nothing but cupro-nickel (the Marstar "Reloaders Special" pulled 218gr BT), and I have had no issues. Mind you I generally only shoot 50 or so at a sitting (the 8x63mm round and steel buttplate is not so easy on the shoulder), and clean it thoroughly after each shoot - water for the corrosive residue, then Hoppe's #9 with bronze brush, then swabs.
 
RobSmith said:
Well ... Since I'm sitting here at home with a bad case of gastro, a pack of 200 patches and not much else to do ...

Thanks for sharing! But knowing you, there is always something to get done.

Be aware of whether the cleaner is going after what is in the bore, and not attacking the jag on the cleaning rod. While cleaning an ex-East German G43, there was a point when I knew the bore was really clean, but it kept showing discolouration on the patch. A guy could theoretically keep going through the motions for days and still picking up some residual contamination.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
Thanks for sharing! But knowing you, there is always something to get done.

Be aware of whether the cleaner is going after what is in the bore, and not attacking the jag on the cleaning rod. While cleaning an ex-East German G43, there was a point when I knew the bore was really clean, but it kept showing discolouration on the patch. A guy could theoretically keep going through the motions for days and still picking up some residual contamination.

I thought about that, and the brass jag does generate <some> blue on the underside of the patches, but since the discoloration on the front of the patches (bore side) is both of a different color (more brownish) and MUCH more significant, I belive that crap is just still coming out of that bore. Guess I'll just have to wait for one of you schlobs to guest me at one of the local ranges ;) so I can put some rounds thru her and put Hitzy's theory to the test ... :dancingbanana:
 
For some reason, some old barrels seem to sweat fouling like they were some sort of sponge. You'll likely still be pushing it out 6 months from now. Take her shooting and get her good and warm and clean it then, may help.

Otherwise forget about it, your past the point of diminishing returns.....
 
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