storage 'in a locked substantial magazine'

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basicbill

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Reading the storage sticky, I am left wondering what is meant by 'substantial'.

I will soon start my reloading efforts and I want to have a satisfactory storage cabinet.

What are you using?

Also, can powder and primers be stored in an unheated garage?
 
Presumably somewhat resistant to casual access or trivial breakin attempts.

Note that is is DANGEROUS to store powders in a safe, or any other particularly strong container. Smokeless powders are very flammable, so they are a substantial fire hazard. But if they are contained, they are then an explosion hazard. In the event of a fire, a safe with powder in it is a bomb.

If you read various storage regulations and guidelines you might see things like "made out of wood at least 2 inches thick", and "non-ferrous hinges and fasteners". There might also be mentions of anti-static precautions. The idea is that wood is strong, and will resist casual breakins, and in a fire it will delay the ignition of the powder, but if the powder ever does lights, the wood will break (and relieve the pressure) and therefore be a much weaker bomb than a stronger metal case would be. The "non ferrous" and anti-static bits are an attempt to avoid ignition sources (sparks).
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Presumably somewhat resistant to casual access or trivial breakin attempts.

Note that is is DANGEROUS to store powders in a safe, or any other particularly strong container. Smokeless powders are very flammable, so they are a substantial fire hazard. But if they are contained, they are then an explosion hazard. In the event of a fire, a safe with powder in it is a bomb.

If you read various storage regulations and guidelines you might see things like "made out of wood at least 2 inches thick", and "non-ferrous hinges and fasteners". There might also be mentions of anti-static precautions. The idea is that wood is strong, and will resist casual breakins, and in a fire it will delay the ignition of the powder, but if the powder ever does lights, the wood will break (and relieve the pressure) and therefore be a much weaker bomb than a stronger metal case would be. The "non ferrous" and anti-static bits are an attempt to avoid ignition sources (sparks).
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I was thinking of building a box about the size of a steamer trunk out of 2x6s but the rules also state it has to be easily removable. My box would be over 200lbs empty and that's not even the full 2" thickness required. It seems that any box you build of adequate size to contain the 75kgs allowed, can't meet all of the storage requirements.
 
basicbill said:
Reading the storage sticky, I am left wondering what is meant by 'substantial'.

I will soon start my reloading efforts and I want to have a satisfactory storage cabinet.

What are you using?

Also, can powder and primers be stored in an unheated garage?
Click to expand...

I'm interested in what people have to say here as I'm wondering the same thing.
 
Most of the people I know of have built a box out of 3/4" plywood, either put together with glue or brass fittings. I don't know of anyone who has built a wood box at least 2" thick to store powder/primers.
 
"Substantial: having substance, actually existing, not illusory ... of solid material or structure, not flimsy, stout" The Concise Oxford Dictionary, 1982.

That would tell me not in a clear plastic bag, and not likely one step up from a cardboard box. Boxes made from thick edge-laminated lumber or 100% bronze hardware are playing into the inspectors' hands. If the test is it cannpt be opened, then a padlock on an ammo can is as good as a dial locked safe.
 
LUTNIT said:
Is there more to the regulations than what is quoted of the laws in the sticky?



Required by who?



The sticky states 10kg maximum. Where does the 75kg number come from?


I'm not being a smart ass I just honestly don't know.
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The sticky is but one little part of the regs. The regs in their entirety can be found at NRCan's site: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._599/ Section XII concerns storage of powder / propellant among other explosives.

The current regs are confusing and vague and they are currently in the last stages of developing new regs in an attempt to make things clearer and more defined. Unfortunately, the new regs still leave some other things vague, but that's another topic.

As far as I can tell, the 10KG maximum was a misconception for many reloaders but the 10KG max doesn't apply to the our powder, but rather, it applies to other classes of explosives. The maximum for powder / propellants is actually 75KG as it falls under Division 1 of Class 6 (ammunition and propellants). Please see the following quoted from Section XII of the current regs on storage / possession of Division 1 of Class 6:

136. In this Part, “suitable receptacle” means a substantial box or substantial container,

(a) that may be placed inside a building that is not itself adapted for the keeping of explosives;


(b) the location of which is not changed from that prescribed by an inspector or under provincial or municipal law;


(c) that is kept away from goods of an inflammable nature; and


(d) that is of easy access for removal in case of fire.


137. In regard to any receptacle, the following provisions shall be observed:

(a) it shall be provided with a closely fitting lid secured by a lock, and hinges and fastenings, preferably of copper or brass, and otherwise closed and secured so as to prevent unauthorized persons having access thereto, and shall be kept locked except when required to be open for receipt or removal of explosives, or other necessary purpose;


(b) it shall be exclusively used for the keeping of explosives;


(c) it shall be made of wood, copper or other suitable material;


(d) the interior of the receptacle and all fittings therein shall be so constructed, covered or lined as to prevent the exposure of any iron or steel, or of any hard or gritty surface, or the entry, detaching, or accumulating of grit, iron, steel or similar substance;


(e) the interior of the receptacle shall be kept scrupulously clean; and


(f) the receptacle shall have the word “EXPLOSIVES” conspicuously displayed thereon on a contrasting background.
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And:

143. A person may have up to 75 kilograms of gunpowder and small arms propellant in his possession if they are stored in accordance with Part XII.
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I've highlighted some of the points in the quote that pertain to questions raised in this thread.

I have yet to find their definition of "Substantial." I have seen 2" thick wood in this thread and other discussions but I can't find that in the regs. I think I'm going back to my original plan to build the a box out of 3/4" plywood.

I hope this helps to clarify things for some people. I too was under the impression for a long tume that our current max was 10KG. I was happy to see that the new, proposed regs are setting the new max at 20KG. But since I've discovered that we're currently allowed 75KG, now I'm not so impressed with the proposed regs.
 
Bitumen said:
I'm interested in what people have to say here as I'm wondering the same thing.
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Currently I'm using locked plastic ATV storage and plastic ammo boxes for powder and primers respectively. But I'm going to build a box out of 3/4" plywood.

If you are thinking of using a cabinet, remember that it has to be easily removable in case of a fire.

I would not store powder or primers outside in a shed or garage unless heat and humidity were always controlled.
 
Another "Thank you" to Tom, along with a heads-up after a quick reading of the regulations.

134. In this Part, “detached store” means

(a) a building well and substantially constructed of brick, stone, concrete, or other fire-resistant substance or of wood covered or treated with fire-resistant material, and

(b) a bin well and substantially constructed of wood covered or treated with fire-resistant material,

which building, or bin is

(c) detached from any dwelling house and situated at a safe distance from any highway, street, public thoroughfare, or public place;

(d) made and closed so as to prevent unauthorized persons having access thereto, and to secure it from danger from without; and

(e) exclusively used for the keeping of explosives.




136. In this Part, “suitable receptacle” means a substantial box or substantial container,

(a) that may be placed inside a building that is not itself adapted for the keeping of explosives;




140. (1) Subject to subsection (3), the quantity of authorized explosives that may be kept in a detached store, whether or not the explosives are kept in a suitable receptacle, shall not

(a) in the case of explosives of Classes 1, 2, 3 and 4, exceed 75 kg in the aggregate; and

(b) in the case of detonators, exceed 100.

(2) Subject to subsection (3), the quantity of authorized explosives that may be kept in a suitable receptacle shall not

(a) in the case of explosives of Classes 1, 2, 3 and 4, exceed 10 kg in the aggregate, of which not more than 5 kg shall be blasting cartridges; and them; and

(b) in the case of detonators, exceed 100.




143. A person may have up to 75 kilograms of gunpowder and small arms propellant in his possession if they are stored in accordance with Part XII.



Enlarged bold text is highlighted by me, and it is important to understand the difference.

Ted
 
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instead of putting everything into ONE container, I use three smaller ones to fulfill the 'easily removeable' requirement. Plywood, glued and brass screws with a brass hasp and padlocks (all keyed the same).

TB
 
Old SKS crate is handy. I built a box out of 3/4" plywood like many others head and put handles and a padlock on it. Just build another one for your primers.

I imagine the only time it will ever be under any scrutiny is if your house burns down (and it plays a role in it.) By the time it's hot enough to light the box and powder on fire there is already a big problem anyways.

A local man was charged with various storage offences and ended up losing all his guns after a divorce. His powder and primers that were out in the open although seized were not among the charges.
 
Why Not?: I'm not sure how many people here have a detached store where section 134 would be applicable. Section 136 does not apply to gunpowder at all. It is important to keep track of what classes each of these sections pertains to.

My storage ideas have changed again. I was coming back from Higginson's this morning and realized I'd be passing by my uncles place. The last time we spoke he told me he had my Dad's old Army barracks box there and I should swing by and grab it. So I did just that. It's solid and large enough for my needs and all the hardware is brass and it's lockable. Plus it's a great old keepsake from my departed father. I'll clean it up and use that until someone can show us that it's not "Substantial" enough. But really, is anything substantial if the thieves are robbing a woodworker with more saws than a deer has ticks?
 
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