Sub2000 gen-3
- Thread starter Horilka
- Start date
Confused ... now I can twist my forend to make the firearm 3-4x wider / harder to stow while exposing my *required* optic to impact and damage!?!
Gen3 Sub2K - when great guns are redesigned by marketing and accounts departments?
Seems like a gimmick to reduce the cost by not including the sights. Gen2 Sub2K has many options to mount optics (if desired) while being smallest and lightest non-restricted PCC in Canada - I am a huge fan of this firearm when upgraded, it is genuinely compact, accurate and reliable. Maybe Gen3 Sub2K is for non-tinkerers who haven't seen an S&W FPC?
Gen3 Sub2K - when great guns are redesigned by marketing and accounts departments?
Seems like a gimmick to reduce the cost by not including the sights. Gen2 Sub2K has many options to mount optics (if desired) while being smallest and lightest non-restricted PCC in Canada - I am a huge fan of this firearm when upgraded, it is genuinely compact, accurate and reliable. Maybe Gen3 Sub2K is for non-tinkerers who haven't seen an S&W FPC?
brownbear53
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Wouldn't be an issue if you get a smaller optic like a Vortex Razor/Venom or a Trijicon RMR, the biggest draw back of the gen2 was that lack of foldability once you installed an optic. OR getting a mount that allowed folding with an optic but most people that have the Mcarbo mount had issues with optics not holding zero due to the mechanism anyways.
The side twisty thingy allows for optics to be mounted directly to the rail. which solves that issue without needing adapters.
I've used my Vortex Venom (on a handgun) as a charging handle against my holster, it will take a lot of abuse that people wont put it through under normal circumstances
The sub2k was designed as a back packer though, having an optic was never a design priority, being compact and deployable without needing a handgun permit(in the states) was.
The S&W is a good build, and I do like it, but from my perspective, I've lost count of how many Glock mags I have, buying new mags just for a PCC is not an option to me, so I wouldn't even consider it.
Bubba Yugga
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Midwestern Ontario
I wonder if putting backup iron sights on the pic rail would be any better than the Gen 2's cheek masher irons?
I understand these are Keltec's marketing claims for the Gen3, personally I just don't get it.
Let's explore the small RMR on the Gen3 idea ... We'll need a co-witness riser to be comfortable, so 1.5" minimum, probably closer to 2"? That's now sticking out the side of the rifle when folded / twisted, glass exposed - built tough like the Venom or not it's a hangup that prevents sliding the rifle into narrow gaps for stow. The twist means we can't mount anything to one of the side's MLOKs, so let's add a flashlight on the "bottom" and a vertical or angled handgrip (because the Sub2K is not a comfortable forend to hold). Now we're as near wide as tall when twisted - volumetrically huge. For th benefit of "optic friendly".
Many claim the Gen2 wasn't optic friendly, or it needs specialist optic mounts - but this isn't true, Keltec did a poor job rebutting it, and the proprietary mounts are expensive and bulky. Take the same RMR on a riser plan and put it on the Gen2, mount it forward and the rifle still folds fine, it even clasps on the front rim of the RMR with a positive click. It doesn't fold all the way, but the "V" is a smaller overall volume than anything else on market by about 50% because it remains narrow. Remove the irons if not needed. If we don't like that plan, there are other solutions including quick release mount, offset mount, don't fold the rifle, or just use the irons. The Gen2 rocks.
I'm unsure if the Gen3 allows folding without twisting, or if it allows a 180 degree twist? Hopefully it's just a feature to use or not. But that still leaves: no irons (BUIS can't go on the rail because too far forward), no lefty fixes, just one ergo fix, no comfort fixes.
Valid points about twisting feature increasing volumetric size with optics included. I value sub2k gen 2 as an affordable and reliable backpacker with very slim profile and don't even consider S&W carbine though I have mags and prefer their handguns. I don't need a backpacker that require dedicated backpack and take all of its volume.
I would rather have metal folding sights or affordable folding mount option. I would rather have more metal parts in sub so it could take more abuse. So I am sceptical about gen 3, but I would reserve my final judgement till I see in depth reviews.
I would rather have metal folding sights or affordable folding mount option. I would rather have more metal parts in sub so it could take more abuse. So I am sceptical about gen 3, but I would reserve my final judgement till I see in depth reviews.
brownbear53
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
You don't need BUIS on sub2k, nor do you need a co-witness, running BUIS is a purely personal choice, out of a dozen rifles with optics I only run BUIS on one rifle out, primarily because it has integrated sights.
Removing the want for a this alone will fix your issues.
I suspect twisting is not required, some pictures show it folded like the gen2, however even with the twisting, you still have an entire side dedicated to accessories.
I think you're missing the whole premise of this gun, its marketed as a compact secondary firearms with a Longer barrel to people with a CCW in the states, or a primary to people that cant get a handgun for CCW(18-21 in most states)
Sure it helps having a compact PCC in the Canadian market, but it wasn't meant for us, if you are planning on putting BUIS, using the rail space for accessories, having an optic, maybe a keltec shouldn't be your first platform preference, you would do much better with a takedown Ruger PC9 (mlok) or a FX9/Raven9 with the upper and lowers separated for storage.
They are much more reliable, solve your purpose far better than a plastic claymore that the keltec has built a reputation for.
brownbear53
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
^^ above mentioned part about the other options may fit you better too?
I don't think these options are comparable. Just for the context: use to have FX9 and still have PC9. To make FX9 ready one has to remove 2 parts from the bag, pull the pins, put upper on the lover, align, push the pins. Now, say you want to teach someone else to be able to use it, someone who is not highly proficient with guns, like wife or kids. A bit faster and less hassle with PC9 - just remove two parts and insert and twist and lock the barrel. Compare it to "remove one piece and unfold it" s2k. Now compare the weight - s2k is so much lighter. I think FX9 is very bad alternative and PC9 is simply not that good alternative to "backpacking" role of s2k. FX9 also does not belong to my personal list of reliable guns. PC9 and s2k do, despite latter being "plastic-fantastic".
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The twisting mechanism - which needs to be reasonably repeatable for optics zero retention - is cheaper than some sights? Doubt it. Also an optic is not required, you could put on flip up sights which wouldn't make it much wider. Not sure why you'd do that when you could just get a gen2, but whatever.
I like it. Guys who want irons can get a gen2, guys who want to use an optic without having to shell out hundreds more for an aftermarket handguard can get a gen 3. Win win in my books.
I've been seeing gen2s for pretty good prices lately. Hopefully that carries over to the gen3s, or they further reduce gen2 prices. In pretty sure a 9mm carbine is my next purchase, been considering the sub2k but I shoot lefty so Ruger might win out in the end.
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BUIS - I was explaining that irons are not possible on the Gen3, I wasn't suggesting the need for co-witnessing / dual sight systems. "optic required" vs "optic friendly", with the Gen3 being the former.
No, I'm not missing the premise of the Sub2K. Yes, I am missing your premise of the Sub2K. The Gen3 Keltec video shows their premise of the Gen3 Sub2K: rural ranch guy with a backpack. That's a premise I relate to, with a Canadian perspective.
Comparing a Sub2K to firearms that are twice the price and twice the size is, at best, quarter the relevance. I was taught that Reliability is about replacing Opinions with Backups.
In positive feedback, I read elsewhere there are at least 2 lefty fixes on the Gen3: the hold back notch is cut both sides, the port deflector is larger.
Interesting...glad Keltec addressed one of the things that were one of biggest downsides of the platform. I am sure with the SW FPC in production, that has addressed this, that the folding with the optic would eventually be something they would have to change.
I had a Sub2K years ago and had it for a quite a while, but sold it, not so much for the folding issues, but it was actually due to really bad onboard sights (and it wasn't just me - multiple range members who tried my Sub2K said it was not very comfortable, particularly with standard electronic muffs on). For me, though the biggest thing I did not like about the Sub2K was the really heavy charging handle and its positioning. Even years later, with both use and storage with the spring compressed, it was still very very stiff to operate, and mine would occasionally slip, charge and freak me out. Mine was in .40S&W, so the felt recoil was a bit more noticeable given how light the gun was.
All that said, and this is just my opinion - I think even if I were to get the Gen3 - if all the other things I noticed were the same, the new fold and twist feature may be just as much of a novelty that fades pretty fast in the light of the other function issues that I personally had with it.
I had a Sub2K years ago and had it for a quite a while, but sold it, not so much for the folding issues, but it was actually due to really bad onboard sights (and it wasn't just me - multiple range members who tried my Sub2K said it was not very comfortable, particularly with standard electronic muffs on). For me, though the biggest thing I did not like about the Sub2K was the really heavy charging handle and its positioning. Even years later, with both use and storage with the spring compressed, it was still very very stiff to operate, and mine would occasionally slip, charge and freak me out. Mine was in .40S&W, so the felt recoil was a bit more noticeable given how light the gun was.
All that said, and this is just my opinion - I think even if I were to get the Gen3 - if all the other things I noticed were the same, the new fold and twist feature may be just as much of a novelty that fades pretty fast in the light of the other function issues that I personally had with it.
https://www.keltecweapons.com/colle...eapon=sub2000&page=1&order=price&orderby=desc
I was surprised too. The front sight body + rear sight adds up to be one of the premium components. Plus consider assembly time of the front sight post springs at factory, then add warranty exposure. Compare to dual part swivel.
Flip up sights probably too far forward for a peep? Maybe something else could work, but still extra money.
The sights being too low is a pretty common complaint with the sub2000. I wonder how their height compares to a standard set of flip up iron sights?...
Hardly apples to apples but I did have some built in flip up sights on my Kriss Vector 9mm and they were fabulous at the right height for many shooters, and very comfortable.
I think if the Sub2K (Gen2) didn't have both an issue with the folding with optic AND the bad onboard sights, it may be palatable.
I had a MCarbo flip mount for a while - IMHO, way overpriced for $260 + tax, or maybe I just got fleeced, but I ended up selling that off separately before I sold the gun.
All that said, it seems like the Gen3 has other improvements. Looking forward to seeing them. I will have to assume since it's not a "new design" per se, that it won't get impacted for import by the recent functional/design restrictions as per the recently passed C21.
421SuperDuty
Regular
- Location
- 中华人民共和国加拿大省
S&W thought they could outdo Keltec, but they forgot he's Him, they don't have a little toy train loaded with cocaine in the engineering department, they don't have that dog in them
Agree with this with the FX9. Even though the upper/lower can come apart easily with two push pins, sometimes putting it together is a slight challenge aligning the holes for the pins. I would not want to have to rely on my ability to do this in a pinch or when time is of the essence.
The Sub2K with the MCarbo mount - even with my cheap Romeo 5 on it, it wasn't great at holding zero (and it's not the optic because I have moved the exact same optic onto other PCCs and it holds zero fine) - so I suspect it's the flip mount.
The PC Carbine is the easiest to reassemble when time is limited or if it has to be done fast. And there's no issues with the optic not holding zero after (at least that's been my experience).
I only see a single entry for the Sub2000 in the FRT, so I would think gen1/2/3 are all using the same FRT which *should* make them available to our market, but really who the fk knows. I wouldn't be shocked if the powers that be said No Dice...
