Suggetions for .338 Win Mag

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NWTHunter

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I've checked out the cost of getting into loading and picked up the Hornady and Barnes Manuals (looking for lyman 48th edition and will pick up Nosler next week).

I've made up my mind with regard to loads for most of my rifles but am intregued with the options for my .338. I'd like to check out the 210 grain bullets, but am most curious about the lighter ones. Can anyone provide some input with respect to 160, 175, and 185 grain .338 bullets? Velocity seems awsome and grain weight is simmilar to .284 bullets, suggesting I might be able to load my .338 for those situations that I currently use my 7mm Remington Magnum for.
 
My buddy tested the 338 180gr BT into wet phone books,after 50yards they held their cores,I think they have Accubonds in that weight now.

The 210 is a bit softer than the 225 and 250 Partions from what I have read. The guy was doing one of those Yellowstone Elk culls,and he noted the marked difference.

With the 338WM you can out velocity the 7mmRM in 175 with the 180,you can load them down to 338.06 and get the effectiveness of the 35Whelen on deer.I don't think their is varmit load for the 338 though.
 
Considering your handle, I am wondering why you are looking at such light bullets for the .338? I loaded ammo for my friend who flew out of Yellowknife. We chose a 225gr Partitions and 225gr X. It was a nice compromise, with emphasis on compromise. I only shot 250gr Partitions and 275gr Speer SS. Are you planning on using it for longer ranges on Caribou?
 
Actually I am new to reloading, haven't even bought the equipment yet. Right now I am reading everything I can get my hands on and saving for the purchase (hopefully in the next two weeks).

The cost of ammunition is what peaked my interest in this hobby, but I would also like to get the most out of the guns I own.

Aside from the 200 grain minimum for Bison, there is not a lot that I really need my .338 for, it is an impressive performer though. Currently I would not think of using my .338 for Caribou, I have other guns that are more suitable for them.

I've just read that there is a potential to load my .338 so that it might out-perform a 7mm STW or 7mm Weatherby. I haven't come accross a 7RM load that will match 160 grains in excess of 3300 fps. Now I don't really need that kind of ballistic performance, but it would be cool to have.

I just want to know if anyone has any hands-on experience with that kind of combination and what the pros and cons might be. I understand that such high velocity could accelerate wear on the barrel, but will a relatively light weight .338 bullet (say Barnes X bullet) perform well at 3300 - 3400 fps?
 
The 338 is a true performer and you will find it shins with accuracy and performance with the hevier bullets, I shoot 250 g SMGs with great results on game and paper, with good velocity.
I think with your light bullets your BC will fall off the map due to a shorter fatter bullet and down range performance may suffer as well as accuracy due to the twist rates.
Cheers
If you are looking for those ballistics look at the 338 RUM or the 38-378 and you can drive your bullets at better velocity.
 
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338 Lighter bullet weights

Hi: I have used the lighter bullets for many years in both my 338's with complete success as per Downwindtrackers comments. I rebarreled one of my rifles from a 7mm RM to 338 WM to give me 2 matching 338's for hunting because I found the same performance specifications as you did. A few comments though regarding these bullet weights. 1) I found I could not safety get over 3100 fps from either of my rifles using 180 Nosler BT's, in fact, the most accurate loads were only running about 3050 or less, 2) The Barnes bullets were very touchy regarding which bullet profile would shoot well, the 185 would not while the 175 worked perfectly, 3) The drop trajectory of the 180 Nosler BT matches the 225 Nosler Accubond right out to 500 yards however, the wind drift of the lighter bullets is far worse than the 225's. This is the only disadvantage I can see using the lighter bullets, 4) if you are switching bullets weights, the 180's and 225's shoot to a really different POA at 200 meters, and 5) The "experts" routinely criticize the use of lighter bullets for lighter game, usually without any experience, because they just "know" they won't work and they are the "wrong" weight.

I found, that in my rifles, the normally reccommended medium burning powders weren't the most accurate loads. These powders are the 4350's, Re15, Imr 4831 etc. However, for the light bullets weights, try Re15, IMR 4064 or Varget but watch your testing and do not mix these powders up without seriously cleaning the barrel between test load groups. I found from costly experience that mixing the test groups with these powders causes a severe fouling to deposit which is really detrimental to accuracy and extremely hard to remove.

If you want a good load for the 180 Nosler BT or Accubond try this. 180 Nosler, 66.0 Re15, Fed 210M primer, and WW cases. This has low pressure and moves about 3000 fps. I have used it for years in my rifles and many others for a deer and practice load. You can try up to 68.0 grain of Re15 depending on the rifle. The recoil is only slightly heavier than a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets. Since the POA is far different than my full power loads I have quit using this load.

If you want a lighter practice or deer load using 225 grain bullets, try 225 Hornady Spirepoints, 61.0 Re15, Fed 210M, and WW cases. This is a 338-06 velocity load at about 2650 FPS but has the advantage of shooting bullets close to the same POA as my full power 225 loads. I keep one 338 sighted in for this load to use as my deer and black bear rifle where I normally hunt in close ranges. The recoil is the same as using the 180 Noslers.

The full bananna load is 225 Nosler Accubonds, 76.0 Re22, Fed 215, Fed Nickel cases. The velocity is 2850 fps. This is a good all-around heavy animal load and will shoot very flat. I have had this load pressure tested and it is the same as normal factory loads and below SAAMI maximum however do not change the bullet on this load to a partition style such as the Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame because the powder causes secondary pressure spikes not present using this bullet.

All of these loads shoot under 1" 3 shot groups at 200 meters in my rifles.

I have shot many elk and moose over the years using 338 caliber bullets and from my experience do not see the need for bullet weights over the 225 grain bullet although many reccommend them. All I can see is that they increase recoil without tangible results on game.

Good luck

Steve
 
1899 said:
What twist rate would be required to stabalize the light bullets?
Click to expand...
My barrel is cut at 1:10 and supports 225 and 250s just fine, I would drop down to 1:12 or so for 200s or 180s, LOL , but 1899 I don't think I need to explain this to you LOL! You know more about the subject than I.

I have little experience shooting 180s out of a 338 diam, just does not make sence to me.

I have tried some 210s and from my experience they don't fly as good for me out at distance, and I have lossed accuracy. If I want to drive 180s at the Fps noted above I would go with my 30-378 or a Lazzi!
Take care
 
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JasonYuke said:
My barrel is cut at 1:10 and supports 225 and 250s just fine, I would drop down to 1:12 or so for 200s or 180s, LOLbut 1899 I don't think I need to explain this to you LOL! Your probly more know more about the subject than I.

I have little experience shooting 180s out of a 338 diam, just does not make sence to me.

I have tried some 210s and from my experience they don't fly as good for me out at distance, and I have lossed accuracy. If I want to drive 180s at the Fps mentioned I would go with my 30-378 or a Lazzi!
Take care
Click to expand...

The reason I ask is because I'd be inclined to think that the very light bullets need a slower twist than what most .338's have. Using the Greenhill formula:

.......................under 2800 fps ....... over 2800 fps
200gr Hornady Spitzer ........ 1:15.2 ....... 1:18.3
225gr Speer BT ............. 1:13.1 ....... 1:15.7
250gr Partition ............. 1:12.5 ........ 1:15
200gr Ballistic Tip .............. 1:12.5 ........ 1:15


All of the new rifles I checked had 1:10 twist. Which would indicate that the heavier bullets should shoot better. I've never shot weights below 210gr Partition, (I wasn't pleased with the results of the 210gr experiment; similar to JY) so I went back to 250gr. I would guess there is a reason that the ballistic tip (200gr) is the same length as the 250gr Partition (other than the obvious aerodynamics).

I am not too familiar with the Greenhill Formula; it seems to spit out slower twists than what is generally found in rifles these days. Can someone explain why?

Steve B: You can shoot whatever you want out of your .338 and good on you for "knowing" the effectiveness of light bullets. I've gotten over my "lighter/faster" is better experiments.

Here are some ballistics. I took the fastest 180gr .338 load I could find off of reladersnest.com - it was 3200fps

7mm RM 160gr Accubond 3075fps (I am still working on this one, I am certain I will hit 3100 with no pressure signs; this is out of a 26" barrel)
Max PBR is 307 yards
300 yards -2.6" 2317ft-lbs and 5.1" of drift (10mph crosswind)
500 yards -29.1" 1782ft-lbs and 14.9" drift

.338 WM 180gr Accubond @ 3200fps
Max PBR is 306 yards
300 yards -2.6" 2407ft-lbs and 7.1"
500 yards -31" 1635ft-lbs and 21.5"

.338 WM 225gr Accubond @ 2900fps
Max PBR is 297 Yards
300 yards -3.8" 2913ft-lbs and 5.3" of drift
500 yards -34.2" 2428ft-lbs and 15.5" of drift

If you examine this chart, you will find the .338 with 180gr bullets is hardly superior to the 7mm RM! All it has is a little extra weight and frontal area. Its not as flat shooting, drifts much more and recoil is significantly heavier. The 225gr, on the other hand, packs much more punch and shoots almost as flat as the 180gr out to 500 yards, which is beyond where most of us can consistantly hit game (in the right spot).

So unless you are loading down for reduced recoil practice (~2800fps with the 180gr) then I really don't see why. That being said, it is always fun to experiment and come to your own conclusions. It is much more entertaing and satisfying than listening to other folks' results!:)
 
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338 light bullets

1899

I have shot many deer with the 180's and they work very well. That is how I "know" they will work. However, I wouldn't reccommend them for heavier game or for hunting in areas where grizzly is present. I used to use them mostly for practice and local weekend deer hunting. I don't suggest that they are superior to the 7mm's or other calibers because really they aren't as good in windy conditions, however, in my case, I wanted 2 rifles shooting the same cartridges and components so I could stock up more easily. With the Lieberals in power, I could see the day when we would be restricted to what we could obtain. That was my own reason for using the lighter bullets.

For most of my hunting career I shot 340 and 338-378 WBY's using 210 and 225 Nosler Partitions. I switched only from the 210's after about 20 moose and elk to the 225's because I found the 225's ballistic's gave the 225's a flatter trajectory. The 210 Nosler BC is listed at .400 but through actual testing the BC was found to be only .320. The 225's is actually about what Nosler lists. This is not uncommon for the manufacturers to publish BC that are not correct in a hunting rifle. This is because the bullets BC are calculated from math tables not actual firing. BTW, my results were almost identical to Rick Jamison's when he started publishing BC from real hunting rifles in the Shooting Times magazine years ago.

In total, I have shot well over 50 moose and elk using these bullets. I have never recovered a bullet from the animals although I really looked. So I ask everyone who suggests using 250 grain bullets because they are better the same question. What makes a 250 bullet better when the 210 and 225's give complete penetration and one shot kills?

I can readily accept that a rifle will not shoot lighter bullets well and have owned a few that don't, but until you try the lighter bullets while hunting, blanket statements about bullet weights can be deceiving in todays world of bonded and monolithic bullet construction.

For example, when Downwindtracker and I tested the 180 Nosler BT's on wet pulp phone books we also tested the new 225 Hornady SST's. Believe it or not but the 180's held together better than the heavier bullets even though the impact velocities for the 180's were far higher. The 180's did shed the cores at 50 meters but the 225's shed them right out to 200 meters. From this testing, I would only use the 225's on deer and I think they would make a real mess.

Also, FYI, both of my rifles have 1-10 twists and shoot the 180's extremely accurately.

Steve
 
I used the 250's for several reasons:
1. They shot the best in both of my .338's
2. The momentum of the heavier bullet may (albeit I have no empirical data to support this claim) transmit a larger amount of shock to the skeletal system of large animals
3. On a bad angle shot on very large animals I feel, all things being equal, the heavier bullet will reach the vitals better.
4. If I want to shoot a 200 gr bullet I'll shoot a .300 Win Mag.
5. At the time I hunted lots in Grizzly country and I felt the more the better.

I'm not suprised that you haven't found a 225gr Partition, if you've shot broadside and behind the shoulders. There was a CGN member who shot a Bison with a .338 the year before last and posted the recovered bullet pics. Maybe he can post them again. That is the kind of game, plus moose, elk etc. where I think the .338 shines. The original post compared the 7mm RM with 175gr loads. That is why I made the comparison I did- for long range shooting of lighter game I don't see the need for a 180gr .338 load. That's all.

With respect to having only one caliber and doing everything with it, experimenting and having fun: that is a good thing.


This is what I was talking about:
Velocity seems awsome and grain weight is simmilar to .284 bullets, suggesting I might be able to load my .338 for those situations that I currently use my 7mm Remington Magnum for.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks 1899. I think I'll let this one drop, stick to conventional bullet weight for calibre and better loads. Not interested in rebarreling for better twist rates. Besides, I now know that the difference between 7RM and .338 at same grain weight is not compelling for me.
 
Conventional wisdom on bullet weights and penetration hinge on bullet constuction,"For more penetration a longer bullet should work better if the jacket thickness is the same".Throw impact velocity and expansion into the mix,and penetraction is no longer simple . Even thought the 338 SST had a much heavier nose jacket than the 308 165 SST when I sectioned,it was Not enought to over come the excellent expansion of the 33 caliber.Obviously Nosler got it right with their 338 180 BTs.

1899,why don't you test your theory about the effect of more weight increases penetraction. Since this is the phone book change over season,get a bunch from the recycler.Soak them,we used rubbermaid bins,then garbage bag them into cardboard boxs. To remove the effect of impact velocity ,down load the light bullet.To make the test meaningful use the same manufacturer like Hornady,200s and 250s.I would be very interested in your results as would most hunting handloaders of the 338WM.

My interest is testing the 264 140 SST at 3200f/s.
 
downwindtracker2 said:
1899,why don't you test your theory about the effect of more weight increases penetraction. Since this is the phone book change over season,get a bunch from the recycler.Soak them,we used rubbermaid bins,then garbage bag them into cardboard boxs. To remove the effect of impact velocity ,down load the light bullet.To make the test meaningful use the same manufacturer like Hornady,200s and 250s.I would be very interested in your results as would most hunting handloaders of the 338WM.

My interest is testing the 264 140 SST at 3200f/s.
Click to expand...

Why would I want to load the light bullet down? The discussion was about a stout load, lets say 180gr @ 3200 fps and 250gr @ 2750 fps. I no longer own a .338 WM, so I'll try this with my 7mm RM tomorrow:

140gr Partition @ ~3250fps
175gr Partition @ ~2950 fps

140gr Barnes X @ ~3150fps
160gr Barnes XLC @ ~2950fps

I don't know if I have enough newsprint to do both tests, but I'll try. They have been soaking in the back of my truck since last tuesday.:)

edit: the reason I believe the heavier bullet penetrates better is momentum. I feel that when firearms manufacturers brought out the smokeless/jacketed bullet design, they used kinetic energy as a descriptive of power because kinetic energy calculations favour velocity. If you use momentum calculations, then velocity does not have as great an effect on the number after the equals sign. A marketing thing I guess.
 
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some 338's just won't shoot light bullets very well. I hear lots of guys state that the 225 and 250 grain bullets shoot best. I know I had a ruger 338 that wouldn't shoot anything lighter than 250 gr bullets. Anythng lighter would result in groups that were about 4" at 100 yards. With 250's it would shoot 1" easy.:rolleyes:

Brambles
 
Any bullet tests are great,but the reason to down load is expansion. Expansion is product of velocity and construction.More expansion you get,the larger area to slow it down.Or simply put ,splatt doesn't pencil.Still the 7mmRM shooters would be intersested.

Bullets change a lot between calibers,in 308 the 165 SST worked slightly better than the 165 BT,whereas the in 338 the heavier SST failed,unlike the 180BT after 50 meters.
 
Well I'm back from the range, with only half the results I was looking for. Poor weather cut our shooting short. Anyways, the test medium was glossy print magazines. They were not very wet, which didn't help the situation as it was very tough on the bullets. Nevertheless:

160gr Accubond @ ~3050fps - 11 magazines - bullet completely came apart; the largest piece I found was the boat tail with trace amounts of lead.

140gr X @ ~3150 fps - 14 magazines - relatively good weight retention and mushroom shape, although not the nice mushroom we expect from X bullets - some petals were broken off.

160gr XLC @ ~2950 fps - 16 magazines - some petals broken off petals


So this small test indicates, as most people would suspect, that the heavier bullet (of equal design) penetrates better. I'll go do some more tests in two weeks and post the results.
 
An object in motion remains in motion until a equal or great force is introduced. Being a object with more mass in motion requires more energy to stop it. Don't argue with NEWTON you won't win
Wieght = Penetration
 
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