superb thread

viper7

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Location
Maritimes
Thanks Sharptail et al, excellent thread.

I'm getting hooked on pheasant and am looking for a new upland gun.

I learned the hard way when gearing up for IPSC that if you are serious about a sport, make sure you are serious about your gear.

I was going to go cheap on an upland double for banging about in the bush, but now I think I will save a few more pennies and buy quality. Too bad there's nowhere to get fitted out here.

Thanks again for the great post.

V7 :)
 
Crap. I hit the wrong button - the thread is "defining the perfect shotgun" by Sharptail. Around page three somewhere.

Good read.

Sorry boys. :roll:
 
Thanks, V7. It is always gratifying when someone seems to understand what I say (it happens so rarely :oops: ). It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend endless hours customizing and discussing the nuances of rifles and handguns, but view the shotgun as little more than a pipe with a trigger. There is NOTHING more satisfying than a well fit, well balanced shotgun for shooting pleasure.

As for fitting, it can be a do - it - yourself project. First, practice your mount until you achieve real consistency. Then, collect a few slip - on butt pads of various thicknesses, or make some spacers to go between the pad or butt plate and the stock. Cut some strips of leather large enough to fit over the top of the comb, and get some packing tape to hold the strips in place. Finally, go to a patterning board, place a dot in the middle, and stand back about 20 yards. Now comes the hard part - don't look at the gun! Stare intently at the dot on the target and use your practiced mount to shoot at the dot - quickly. If you look at the gun at all, you will defeat the purpose of the exercise. After 3 or 4 shots, you will see a pattern emerge that will show you whether you are shooting high or low. Add length to the stock with the pads or spacers, or add height to the comb with the leather strips. Adding about 1/8th of an inch at a time seems about right. Play with different combinations of length and comb height until you achieve an impact point that places about 60 % of the pattern above the dot, 40% below it. Remember not to look at the gun, and be sure your mount is consistent - placing the gun on different parts of your shoulder will give different points of impact. The process can be somewhat tedious and can take several days, but the results are well worth it as you end up with your own personal "custom" shotgun that shoots where you look. You will get more birds, guaranteed. Once in a while you will find a gun where the comb is too high. There is nothing to do then except to remove wood by sanding, or have the stock bent, or sell the gun and get another that fits you better. There are other measurements, such as cast and pitch, that are not addressed by this method, but you can ignore them for now. Once you have the stock just right, you can use more permanent methods of sticking down the leather and fitting the spacer or pad, or you can use the measurements from your results and have a custom stock made just for you (cast and pitch will come into play then). I cannot stress enough the difference that this will make to your shooting. Think about it - if you can toss a baseball or a football to a running receiver, then your eye - hand coordination is good enough. If you had to look at your hand every time you threw the ball, and line it up with the receiver, your completion rate would drop dramatically. Yet, this is exactly what most people do with their shotguns. Spend the time and the effort, and you will be rewarded.

Sharptail
 
So if the groups are off to the right or left of this "natural point of aim" this can be fixed with cast and/or pitch, or foot placement just like in pistol shooting?

When I set up on a target with a pistol, I close my eyes and draw on the target to a stance where I am totally comfortable and could basically stand there all day. Then I open my eyes and If the sights are not on target I move my feet and my head and not the gun. Right foot forward moves sights left and so on, and head up sights up and so on. I repeat until I draw right to where I want with my eyes closed.

Obviously birds and clays won't give you the time to go through this dance, and of course the target is moving, but in action pistol shooting I find that after a while going through this exercise your body remembers where it should be in relation to the target and will go there subconciously every time.

So, short question - adjust for left/right with your feet right?

regards,

V7
 
In my experience (and hopefully others can add to this) shooting left or right of centre with a shotgun is caused by one or more of 3 things. First is placement of the butt on the shoulder. Many individuals tend to place the stock on the ball of the shoulder, instead of in the pocket, causing the shot to pull to the left for a right handed shooter. Practicing the mount is (as I keep harping) very important to consistent shooting. Second, the offset of the stock, known as cast, can be responsible. A problem with cast is usually the result of too much cast, not too little. Many shotguns (such as the Ruger Red Label) have no cast; that is the stock is in a direct line with the barrels. I find that this causes me to tilt my head in an unnatural manner, and that is hard to do consistently. For a right handed shooter, I believe that the stock should be cast off (bent towards the right hand side of the gun) by about 1/8th of an inch at the heel, maybe as much as 1/4 inch at the toe, for an individual of average build. A left handed individual needs cast on (bent to the left). Cast is difficult to adjust and can be done by sanding, or better yet bending the stock. In either case, it should be done by someone who is an experienced stockmaker. The measurement changes are small, and it is easy to screw things up. Some shotguns (such as the newer Beretta gas guns) come with replaceable shims which change drop and cast, and are a very good way to achieve a close fit. The third cause of left or right shot placement is poorly regulated barrels, including misaligned ribs and chokes. Rarer in these days of CNC machines, but not unheard of. Unless you can solder barrels or ribs, there is nothing you can do about it. Some gunsmiths can "bend" barrels (don't try this at home), and facilities like Brileys' can manufacture eccentric chokes to correct the problem (it had better be an expensive gun to make this worthwhile).

Adjusting for point of impact by moving your feet might work on the skeet field, but you would have to have a very good memory. It will not work in the hunting field, where you never know where your feet will be when you shoot. V7, with your handgun you are adjusting point of aim by training your body. With the shotgun we want to change point of aim by adjusting the stock. Think if you could twist and cant the grip of your pistol, so that when you opened your eyes you would be looking straight down the sights. With the shotgun, you want to ignore the sights and have the gun shoot where you look.

The good news is that finding your point of impact significantly to the left or right of your point of aim is quite rare with a shotgun. It is fairly obvious if you are looking across the barrel(s), rather than down along them. Also, the pattern from a shotgun will easily cover a 3 or 4 inch difference between point of aim and point of impact. A stock with a little bit of cast to allow for a natural placement of the head is usually all that is needed to ensure a straight shot. You cannot even begin to fine tune for cast until your mount is truly consistent. Far more common is shooting high or low. People do miss targets by shooting behind them, or less often in front of them, but this is because they have not yet learned the proper lead, not because of problems with gun fit. Work on your mount, do the tedious work on the patterning board, get the gun shooting where you look, and you will find that you are a better shot with a shotgun than you ever thought you could be. Finding a good coach or a gunfitter will help speed up this process, and there are many books written on the subject which will help, but there is simply no substitute for the grunt work (what a surprise).

Now comes my philosophical question - why would you do all this work to achieve a good fit, on a shotgun with poor handling and balance, or with improperly regulated barrels or chokes, poor triggers or a questionable bolting system? Gun fit is one thing, handling and balance are another, and mechanical integrity and function are yet another. A good shotgun, well fitted, will last you a lifetime, and be a source of pride and satisfaction. This does not mean you need a Purdey or a Holland. A good many people have found life - long satisfaction with a $250 Winchester model 12. For me, balance and handling are of primary importance. Short of having a moment of inertia table to measure such things, the best way to determine handling qualities is by feel. Pick up and shoulder and swing as many shotguns as you can possibly lay your hands on. You will feel the difference between them. The best clue is if a gun feels lighter than it is - if you guess a gun weighs 6 3/4 lbs., and it really weighs 7 1/2, then the manufacturer has probably got the balance right.

A shotgun is a sophisticated tool, and being a good wingshot is very rewarding and satisfying. The sport is, IMHO, well worth the effort you put into it. I wish I could change the "Oh, so Macho!!!!!" subheading of this forum. It implies mere brute force, and is not inviting to the female shotgunners out there (Canada has some world class female shotgunners). Plus, it reminds me of the Village People (something I can do without). Perhaps "The power and the glory" would be a better subheading. Surely someone can think up a better subheading than that.

Sharptail
 
Found it!

Will be working on the boy's new shotgun with these instructions.

Thought this thread was worthy of a bump, perhaps even worthy of a sticky.

Any other words of wisdom for new shooters from from serious shotgunners?


edit: speling
 
The shotgunner's best kept secret - the patterning board.

On his worst day, Sharptail's insight will open your eyes to innumerable considerations you never thought about before. But, if you do nothing else, you owe it to yourself to heed what he says about the oft ignored patterning board.

Nothing more needs to be said about what you can learn about personal fit at the board. But a patterning board can offer other valuable information as well - the results of choke selection, for example. We sometimes behave as though we all think that modified is modified and we'll get the same performance from a modified-choked barrel on a 12 ga S-A shooting 5-shot steel as with a 20 ga SXS loaded with 7 1/2 lead. While this certainly can happen, it's highly unlikely.

You may be surprised (as I was) the first time you shoot 7 1/2-shot through a modified choke from 40 yards. With holes in the pattern large enough for a pheasant to slip through unharmed, it's no wonder a clay target appears to have been "missed".

Similar to handguns, you will discover differences in which ammunition yields the best results. Poorly regulated barrels are easily exposed.

My personal preference when working at the board is to start from a field carry position, mount and fire all in one motion as you would in the field. This method helps me to practice and reinforce my mount, and more closely approximates the target acquisition and shot placement of a wingshooting scenario (although a moving pattern board would be better for that purpose).

I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to spend days in front of a patterning board, but especially if you shoot a variety of shotguns, one or two rounds from each barrel, with each choke and load, from a range of distances is, in the words of Access network, time well wasted. (lots of fun, too)

SS
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom