I have been teaching myself sustained lead in skeet for sometime, mostly because Todd Bender's videos recommended it, and I found him to be a great teacher in them. What has been happening for several years, however, is that I often found myself sweeping the bird with my second shot in a doubles and with #1 high house and #6 low house where angular acceleration is so high. I do take the first bird before the center line with doubles too. Now position and hold point and so on should take care of all this, but either I'm missing something or it doesn't for me, certainly not all the time. There is no doubt too that fine shooters use the other method in many situations including George Digweed, another name to reckon with. So, I have been thinking of changing what I am doing to see if I can gain a bird or so and be more consistent. Then I began to wonder what other people in this forum do and whether they had any opinions regarding the different methods. I would appreciate any comments or opinions people care to make about this very much as the topic is of real interest to me, and I am leaning toward changing what I am doing fairly radically.
Sustained Lead vs Sweeping Through the Bird in Skeet
- Thread starter BCFred
- Start date
Another vote for sustained lead...
Doubles is a timing game. There are a lot of little tricks you can use to optimize. If you are continually getting beat by the second bird, and have to pass through it, there are some adjustments that can be made so that the second bird doesn't get by you. Maybe it is breaking the first bird earlier. Maybe it is a simple eye shift mechanic so that you see the second bird sooner.
Doubles is a timing game. There are a lot of little tricks you can use to optimize. If you are continually getting beat by the second bird, and have to pass through it, there are some adjustments that can be made so that the second bird doesn't get by you. Maybe it is breaking the first bird earlier. Maybe it is a simple eye shift mechanic so that you see the second bird sooner.
Reading up on what people consider to be sustained lead,it isn't what I first interpreted it to be. I was thinking of people establishing the proper lead, and then trying to maintain that lead for a noticeable time period, before pulling the trigger. I swing the gun, and the instant that the lead appears correct, I pull the trigger.
The way Paul Giambrone taught me to shoot sustained doubles, is to make your first shot at 2/3 on the close side of the center stake, continue the swing for a few yards while at the same time bringing the gun down just a few feet and shift eyes to acquire the second target then move back with it the same as if it was a single. Keep in mind that sustained is the way to shoot, but this does not mean you will never need to shoot a swing through recovery shot if you don't move on the blur.
It has been a year or so since I shot a sporting clays round, but it was in this discipline that I found myself doing other than sustained lead quite often. Of course, this is what George Digweed shoots and he has been world champion how many times...18?
Yes, I eventually came to the same conclusion you did, mostly because of the idea of matching velocity and so on, but I think you are right. Any time I think too much I miss...probably not an unfamiliar experience to most of us 
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the spank
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I watched and studied Todd Bender's video's several years ago and can honestly say my skeet game went up 100% in consistency. Fantastic stuff. I am and always was a sustained lead shooter but Todd's video's really helped me improve my game.
Couldn't agree more about Bender's videos. I did find the shot analysis video a bit hard to watch, but the disk on fundamentals is one of the best I've seen. BMcrae's comment about eye shift is one I am definitely going to work with, very helpful. I'm pretty fixed on getting the first bird and haven't thought through how to look for the second. At station 1 I've gotten pretty good catching the second bird about 2 to 3 yards before it's out of bounds. Maybe the way Giambrone taught it is a good clue too. I'm very grateful for the comments made. They are very helpful. Thank you.
If you are shooting the second bird on 1 just before it gets out of bounds, you are way way late on the first shot.
Good thread.
spank, I'm envious of your results. I've spent all of this year going hard on skeet and even took a pro training session and haven't seen much improvement in my scores or misses.
Good thread.
spank, I'm envious of your results. I've spent all of this year going hard on skeet and even took a pro training session and haven't seen much improvement in my scores or misses.
Yup, on a good day I'm not quite that bad, but you're clearly right adamg. The puzzler is I am hitting the first bird from the high house pretty well (maybe 5 or 10 feet before the centre, if I try to better that I start missing and rushing my shot, maybe I have to push myself out of my comfort zone of course). Theoretically the low house bird should be just before the centre line when I shoot the high house bird, but I never see it there or even at the center line. In fact, I have started swinging the gun as soon as I can after the first shot because I know I'm going to be behind and will have to catch up. It's why I think those who mentioned eye mechanics and position are probably right. I've thought that I might align my shotgun to the right of the high house trajectory, swing toward the high house bird and take it on the way by just like some chaps do in doubles trap. But, after comments here, I'm going to try looking for the second bird before I swing to see where I get. The whole timing might change on the shot. Good comments, no doubt.
the spank
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I use Todd Bender's station 1 rule, hold 15 ft above the centre stake and don't move the gun. Pull the trigger when the bird reaches you keeping your gun stationary and let the pattern do the work. I have no trouble picking up the second bird as it comes over the centre stake that way and riding it to where I want to break it. As Todd says as well. if you break the low house single where you would the low house double you will always get that sight picture and timing the same.
- Location
- Sudbury Ontario
For Skeet I use sustained lead 95% of the time, only time I don't is when shooting doubles on my 2nd bird for st 3, 4, and 5 I'm not a great double shot however, or if I get a late start on a bird lol. for sporting however I was talking to Dave Peckham and George Digweed one night after the World sporting in Galt and they both agreed, To be successful shot in sporting you have to be able to use all the methods of shooting, I have been noticing how to take different birds more and more and my scores keep improving!!!
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I can't speak for Todd, but I did take a clinic with him. I am pretty certain he would tell you Promptly, that he does not and nor should you ever be comparing the bead to the bird. He would tell you that 100% of his focus is on the target or leading edge of the target. Once you have enough experience and begin to trust yourself to make the shot, sight picture, leads are not important, these highly accomplished shooters mount the gun in the right place for them, look in the right place for them, make a good move, focus on the target and pull the trigger, nowhere in that sequence of events are they looking at the barrel or bead of the gun or trying to find sight picture, they are "feeling" the shot for lack of a better term.
Todd has his own forum on shotgunworld you could ask him there if you like.
BC Fred, if you want, PM me your phone number and I can try and help you a little over the phone, I am by no means an expert or a super accomplished shooter, but I'm half decent and with practice fairly good, not like bmcrae, he is like the Robert Paxton of Canada, but where I feel I am quite good is as a coach, I've joked for years I can teach people to shoot better than I can myself, that is if they listen and stick to it, which many don't and that's why many don't succeed.
There is much I'd like to tell you all but it's difficult to convey what I mean by typing here, it's too bad we are so spread out, in person would be awesome!
beretta boy
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I consider myself a "sustained lead" shooter for Skeet, but do use other methods ... move, mount, shoot ... swing-through & pull ahead as various games & target presentations warrant.
I've never watched Tod Bender or Wayne Mayes tapes, but their success obviously warrants emulation. My earliest shooting was influenced by C.I.L.'s Barney Hartman whom I had the opportunity to shoot with a few times and D.Lee Braun. the Remington Industry Pro. Whatever Trap lessons I was able to absorb came from watching Kay Oyhe, Brad Dysinger & Susan Nattrass,
and from talking to & shooting with George Leary & Paul Shaw.
For skeet, it's all pretty much sustained lead for me except for 8-L which I shoot swing-through. I shoot enough "straights' on a regular basis to know what works for me.
For International Skeet, which I don't shoot all that often, it's "move. mount & shoot" from the International position.
Trap, and especially International Trap is pretty much all swing-through.
Sporting & 5-Stand takes a combination of methods. I prefer to shoot gun-down so Gary Philips "move mount shoot" ( really a modified type of sustained lead) seems to work
best for me on about 75% of the presentations. The "bunny" is mostly a swing-through proposition unless they are long crossers. Most first shots on the springing teal are swing-through (actually up & through). Battues & Chondelles are an entity unto themselves ... I pretty much have to make a decision on what to do after seeing them. With the required compound lead for some, pull-ahead after tracking the target for direction & speed ) often works out best ... I find it hard to be both "in front & under" with sustained lead.
I don't think there is any one particularly method that works for everything ... but understanding & using a variety of techniques that work for differing target presentations can be
very advantageous at times. I don't think anyone would have much success at upland hunting for grouse & woodcock trying to shoot with sustained lead, but it certainly works for pass shooting waterfowl. Use whatever works best for you !
I've never watched Tod Bender or Wayne Mayes tapes, but their success obviously warrants emulation. My earliest shooting was influenced by C.I.L.'s Barney Hartman whom I had the opportunity to shoot with a few times and D.Lee Braun. the Remington Industry Pro. Whatever Trap lessons I was able to absorb came from watching Kay Oyhe, Brad Dysinger & Susan Nattrass,
and from talking to & shooting with George Leary & Paul Shaw.
For skeet, it's all pretty much sustained lead for me except for 8-L which I shoot swing-through. I shoot enough "straights' on a regular basis to know what works for me.
For International Skeet, which I don't shoot all that often, it's "move. mount & shoot" from the International position.
Trap, and especially International Trap is pretty much all swing-through.
Sporting & 5-Stand takes a combination of methods. I prefer to shoot gun-down so Gary Philips "move mount shoot" ( really a modified type of sustained lead) seems to work
best for me on about 75% of the presentations. The "bunny" is mostly a swing-through proposition unless they are long crossers. Most first shots on the springing teal are swing-through (actually up & through). Battues & Chondelles are an entity unto themselves ... I pretty much have to make a decision on what to do after seeing them. With the required compound lead for some, pull-ahead after tracking the target for direction & speed ) often works out best ... I find it hard to be both "in front & under" with sustained lead.
I don't think there is any one particularly method that works for everything ... but understanding & using a variety of techniques that work for differing target presentations can be
very advantageous at times. I don't think anyone would have much success at upland hunting for grouse & woodcock trying to shoot with sustained lead, but it certainly works for pass shooting waterfowl. Use whatever works best for you !
For sure lots of methods that many have had success with, bcfred is asking though specifically about american skeet and the vast majority of highly accomplished shooters are using sustained lead.
Thanks gwagan. I think Giambrone would agree with what you wrote, based on my recollection the lesson I took. What leaves me wanting through is I can try to shoot that way, but when I miss how do I know what I did wrong or where the shot went?
Well that's the hard part isn't it
It's going to completely depend on you, if you have access to a good coach or even another skilled and proven shooter hopefully they will be able to see your mistakes and help you correct them, you still need to have the fundamentals down and some level of natural ability, though this varies as to what you want to achieve?
If you are lucky like me, if you have an analytical mind, an obsession for skeet, and a healthy dose of natural ability you might be able to figure out your mistakes by yourself, plus after five or six years shooting I took a bender clinic.
Some of my greatest improvements have come from off the skeet field, simply by just thinking about what is happening and what has to happen. Many a time early in the morning kneeling between two cows switching a milker I have had "skeet revelations" lol.
I took three or four years off from competitive shooting and but never stopped thinking about it and came back last year like a house on fire, at least compared to some of my previous performances.
I never really believe in setting goals, they've never affected my day to day life so why would they help in skeet, but in my comeback year last year, I set goals for myself met and exceeded them, I think it helped keep my mental focus on track.
Sorry for the long loopy story, back to your problem of being able to tell what has gone wrong. The first is how do you feel after the shot, and I don't mean happy/sad, I mean are you off balance? is your head off the gun? are you leaning back or to one side? This will give you your first hint.
After a lot of shooting and as bmcrae likes to say "the first 100,000 targets are the hardest"
You will be able to "tell" where your shot went, it just takes experience. Focus on your targets, are you breaking off the fronts? the back end? the bottom? This will obviously let you know if you are in front, behind high/lowI took a lesson from LP as well and I felt I didn't come away with anything helpful, where as I found bender endlessly helpful as to the improvement of my game. I think LP is a better coach for beginners, but not as good a problem solver for those who either have years of bad habits that needs undoing or more experienced and successful shooters who just need some fine tuning.
I am sure he went of eye dominance issues with you, gun fit and those kind of basics. You really need to have those down before you can move forward from there.
I didn't think gunfit was very important earlier on, but now with experience and proper fitting, the difference is absolutely amazing and gun fit is absolutely critical, the tiniest of differences to your comb can make all the difference on the field. A morning spent with Klaus Hiptmeyer really opened my eyes, which were widened further when I got home and was effortlessly grinding targets.
Skeet is simple, remember the basics they are the key to success, the more complicated you make it the more difficult it's going to be.
If anyone wants help send me your phone number or if you find your way to Kingston,ON I'll give you all the free help you want.
