Swiss Arms Classic Green Load Development

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Spine

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I thought I would post a report of how I perform with my Classic Green and how some different loads and projectiles look.

Here are a couple notes about the shooting session.

* 100yd
* About 3-4 deg C, Slight Wind
* Rifle had about 120-130 rounds since last cleaning
* Bench rested under bayonet mount and under rear of stock
* 10 rounds per target, 5 rounds per mag change.
* 4.5x scope on ADM Recon-H Mount /w Sig Cheek Rest
* Various Brass, mostly Rem. or Win. .223 Each brass is same type per load.
* Lightly Crimped using LEE factory crimp.
* All Brass trimmed to 1.750 and beveled with RCBS 3-way cutting head.
* Using LEE Anniversary Press and standard .223 die set.
* No concentricity measurement.
* Volumetric measurement only (no trickler)

Here is my disclaimer: I am by no means an expert shot, and with my 4.5x scope there are some limitations of my visual acuity. I am also not an expert reloader and have not sorted the brass, projectiles or assembled cartridges by weight or concentricity so this might be some areas for additional improvement. Since I was limited to 5 rounds maximum, I need to change mags per target so I might not get the exact same cheek weld or right picture for the second 5 shots and therefore this could cause some issues. Target #9 shows this very well. Lastly I was firing these 10 shot strings in less than 45-60 seconds so there may also be some impact of the heat building up in the barrel as well.

After all that is said and done, if anyone would like to comment or provide any suggestions on where I can go from here with load development I would appreciate it!

The squares on the target should be 1" x 1"

Load #1
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 24.5gr of H335
Projectile: Hornady 52gr BTHP Match #2249
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Load #2
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 24.9gr of H322
Projectile: Hornady 52gr BTHP Match #2249
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Load #3
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 25.0gr of H335
Projectile: Hornady 52gr BTHP Match #2249
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Load #4
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 23.7gr of H322
Projectile: Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT W/C #2267
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Load #5
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 26gr of Varget
Projectile: Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT W/C #2267
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Load #6
Factory Remington UMC 55gr (L223R3)
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Load #7
Factory Winchester USA 55gr
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Load #8
Factory Winchester USA 62gr
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Load #9
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 25.3gr of Varget
Projectile: PRVI 69gr HPBT Match
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Load #10
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 23.1gr of H322
Projectile: Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT W/C #2267
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Load #11
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 24.5gr of H322
Projectile: Hornady 52gr BTHP Match #2249
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Load #12
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 25.2gr of H322
Projectile: Hornady 52gr BTHP Match #2249
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Load #13
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 23.5gr of Varget
Projectile: Armscor 62gr FMJ Bulk
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Load #14
Primer: CCI 400
Powder: 24.5gr of Varget
Projectile: Armscor 62gr FMJ Bulk
14.jpg



Right now I am thinking I should further investigate loads 1,3 and 9. With the PRVI 69gr and Varget I might be able to get under 1 MOA with 5 shot strings.
 
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1) Bench rested under bayonet mount and under rear of stock
2) Various Brass
3) Using LEE Anniversary Press and standard .223 die set.
4) No concentricity measurement.
5) Volumetric measurement only (no trickler)

There is so much wrong with the above if you are looking for accuracy and repeatability:
#1 - benching under the barrel is bad juju and will get you nowhere in a hurry.
#2 - While I do have loads that use a mixed bag of brass, if I'm looking for accuracy I at least stick with the same manufacturer.
#3 - Standard dies blow. Run out can be wild, and if you are using FMJ...well, your targets are an indication of what can and will happen. A match type seater die will do wonders for your completed ammo and the runout.
#4 - See above. Also, the weight of typical FMJ is notorious for not being concentric, so having it loaded straight in the case doesn't do much for it once it leaves the barrel. If you are looking at accurate load development, steer clear of the FMJ or bulk bullets.
#5 - Volumetric on ball powder is a crap shoot with a good measure. Velocity spread can be sometimes erratic.

Some things you did not include in your post: Velocites? Your barrels twist rate?
I'd put something decent through it to know what it is capable of, like GMM - at least you'll have a baseline to start at.

GL
 
I agree spine... with target #'s 1,3, and 9. The tight groups caught my eye immediately.
And clearly, moving youre elbows and cheek from the stock impacted the 5 shot stringeres in slightly different locations.

Ive found over my years of reloading, most rifles like a certain velocity with a type of bullet.

Youll prolly find the tighter groups on youre favorite targets were all about the same velocity?... might not be absolute on that but its worth looking into the theory.:)

I admire youre "getter done" way of shooting, and still come out with a decent hunting grouping.

I think if you slowed down a bit, were more selective in the type of brass, and maybe tricle charged the loads to exact grains.... you would improve youre already very good shooting skills. Oh almost forgot... clean the barrel a bit more too.:)
 
I suggest you find someone else shooting the same rifle and see what powder, bullet and powder volume it likes. Its not going to be the magical answer but will lead you in the right direction. When you see a load that looks promising play with the volume, OAL, ect.. and you should find something suitable.
Despite what SA owners will say you'll never get the consistent accuracy of a HB bolt gun. What people claim on the net and what's real life are usually quite different.

Cheers!!
 
Hey guys, thanks for the tips.

I didn't want this thread to make a statement about the rifle I am using or how good/bad it is, but rather just posting what I was doing. The above targets are probably a combination of mostly my errors, but by getting feedback here I am hoping to fix them! :)

Can anyone recommend a good seating die? I am using the Lee 223 Pacesetter 3-Die Set.

My Barrel is a 1 in 7" and I also have no chronograph so I have no clue what my velocities are. When i get a little more cash I will pick one up.
 
beltfed said:
1) Bench rested under bayonet mount and under rear of stock
2) Various Brass
3) Using LEE Anniversary Press and standard .223 die set.
4) No concentricity measurement.
5) Volumetric measurement only (no trickler)

There is so much wrong with the above if you are looking for accuracy and repeatability:
#1 - benching under the barrel is bad juju and will get you nowhere in a hurry.
#2 - While I do have loads that use a mixed bag of brass, if I'm looking for accuracy I at least stick with the same manufacturer.
#3 - Standard dies blow. Run out can be wild, and if you are using FMJ...well, your targets are an indication of what can and will happen. A match type seater die will do wonders for your completed ammo and the runout.
#4 - See above. Also, the weight of typical FMJ is notorious for not being concentric, so having it loaded straight in the case doesn't do much for it once it leaves the barrel. If you are looking at accurate load development, steer clear of the FMJ or bulk bullets.
#5 - Volumetric on ball powder is a crap shoot with a good measure. Velocity spread can be sometimes erratic.

Some things you did not include in your post: Velocites? Your barrels twist rate?
I'd put something decent through it to know what it is capable of, like GMM - at least you'll have a baseline to start at.

GL
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips.

Where would you recommend that I support the front of the rifle? I also tried under the handguard by where the tripod connects and I couldn't seem to improve on it.

For the brass I made sure each 10 shot "load" was using all of the same brass, but between targets one might have been all remington and one might have been all winchester. I think I will take my best loads from here, and then try to stick to one type as you suggest.

As for the FMJ - I have to admit I am using them because I am cheap. The 62gr ARMSCOR are cheap and I don't expect to get anything great out of them and will probably use those for plinking in the future. The 69gr PRVI HPBT match seem to be pretty good as well as the 52gr Hornady HPBT match. But you are correct, the 55gr Hornady FMJ, and even the factory 55gr and 62gr FMJ are some of the worst performers.
 
Buy some 69 gr SMK's or 75 gr Amax, if you have a fast enough twist try some 80 gr SMK's, but you likely won't be about to use your mag. 77 gr SMK's are designed to fire from a standerd AR mag.
Trickle the desired powder charge. Use a solid rest under the forestock and a rear bag under the butt of the rifle. Slow down on your shooting, one shot per minute at least.
Last but not least, try not crimping.
 
Spine said:
My Barrel is a 1 in 7" and I also have no chronograph so I have no clue what my velocities are. When i get a little more cash I will pick one up.
Click to expand...

One in 7 ? My CG is one in 10.

Anyhow, as I understand it your 1x7 twist rate should be great for the longer bullets that help with accuracy.

You've invited some critique here, and I see you got it :). Main thing to remember is that doing what you're doing is very worthwhile and is about fun and moving both you and your rifle toward optimum performance, whatever that may be. The competitors among us, (not me :D) may loose sight of this aspect at times, but their advice is nonetheless excellent.

The barrel on that CG isn't free floated and never will be. Where you support it will be a matter for experiment I expect. Let us know what works best.

BTW, you'll need to buy a chrony.
 
Spine said:
Where would you recommend that I support the front of the rifle?.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'd echo the above about bagging it just in front of the front take down pin. Concentrate on being consistant in your mounting and firing the rifle from shot to shot. If you do that the mag change should not matter.

Spine said:
As for the FMJ - I have to admit I am using them because I am cheap. The 62gr ARMSCOR are cheap and I don't expect to get anything great out of them and will probably use those for plinking in the future.
Click to expand...
Yep, me too!:)
Just know the limitations of them and feel confident in what they deliver may not be a reflection of how you or your rifle are shooting.

Spine said:
The 69gr PRVI HPBT match seem to be pretty good as well as the 52gr Hornady HPBT match. But you are correct, the 55gr Hornady FMJ, and even the factory 55gr and 62gr FMJ are some of the worst performers.
Click to expand...

I've not tried the PRVI 69s but would recommend the Sierra 69gr. SMK in a heartbeat.

:cheers:
 
The barrel should be cleaned.
A 120 to 130 rounds may even be copper fouling the bore.
An old adage some target shooters used was, "One push through with the bronze brush for every shot fired"
 
Update April 2, 2011

I thought I would share my most recent load development section with you. I have a quick notes first:

  • Shot at 100m because the 100y range was a swamp (100m = 109.4yds)
  • Swiss Arms Classic Green 1:7 twist
  • This time I placed the the front rest to as close as physically possible to the taketown pin. Rear stock was also sandbagged.
  • Rifle was cleaned before target #1 (using wipeout foam bore cleaner to remove any possible copper fouling) - Shot 8-9 fouling shots before target #1
  • Air temperature was about 9-11 degrees C
  • Wind was quite gusty and not ideal but I tried to time my shots between gusts as best as possible
  • All loads (except for the factory loads and loads # 20, 21 and 24) were exact weighed (using trickler). 20,21 and 24 were volumetricy charged and produced a while ago
  • Using LEE anniversary press with LEE .223 pacesetter dies. Brass was full length resized and trimmed to 1.750" with RCBS 3-way cutter
  • No sorting of bullets or brass by weight or cartridges by concentrically (yet)
  • Cheap 1-4.5 Busnell scope on ADM Recon-H Mount using SIG cheekrest
  • 5-Shot (1 Mag for me in Canada) strings
  • All cartridges very lightly crimped with Lee Factory Crimp.
  • Target changes happened between targets 7 and 8, 14 and 15, 21 and 22. This means targets 8,15 and 22 were shot from a cooler barrel. All other shots were slow and deliberate about 30-40s apart

DANGER!!!!!!!!!!

  • Load #6 and #7 had some flattened primers which could mean possible overpressure. Hornady says max load for .223 with H335 with 52gr bullet is 25.4gr, Sierra says 27.6gr for AR-15 .223
  • Load #13 to #15 had some flattened primers which could mean possible overpressure. Hornady says max load for .223 with H335 with 52gr bullet is 25.0gr, Sierra says 25.2gr for AR-15 .223

The primers did not flow into the pocket chamfer and they were NOT cratered but they definitely were more flat and had sharp edges compared to a factory primer. This is not uncommon but I thought I would let people know. It may just be that the CCI400 primers are a little soft but I think everyone should take care and be careful.

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Here are my conclusions (feel free to add your own, good or bad!)

  • H335 performs ok! (Targets #5 and #6) A lot of people say spherical powders are not that good, but honestly it throws consistent weights in my powder charger and this might be a good choice for a decent mass loaded cartridge that you might not want to spend the time to trickle each powder charge.
  • H322 seems to to be a bit better than H335. For target #10, it is already about 1 MOA if you count the flyer and sub MOA if you remove the flyer, which could be because of me.
  • Some of the factory ammo is just terrible. The Winchester USA 55gr FMJ and Winchester 62gr FMJ is not worth the price I paid (9$/20 55gr and 15.95/20 62gr) and I can make more accurate match loads for far cheaper. The Remington UMC 55gr is OK for plinking I would say.
  • The GP90 was kind of disappointing for me. I did another string to double check the performance. I was using 1988 vintage.
  • Just for kicks, I wanted to compare some previous loads I did which were just volumetricaly weighted. These #20 which is using Hornady A-MAX 75gr, which needed a bit of magazine modification to make fit. #21 was using some PRVI 69gr HPBT Match and Varget and I think this could be a very promising long range load for me especially if I exact weigh each load.
  • #24 is completely terrible, using very inexpensive new Armscor 62gr FMJ. I guess this just demonstrates how important a good projectile is for accuracy. I will try to sort these by weight and see how things improve.

Next Steps:

  • Load development using my 69gr SMK and Varget, 75gr PRVI HPBT Match and 69gr PRVI HPBT Match projectiles.
  • Repeat of a few select loads from above but this time using BR-4 bench rest primers.
  • Extend the 69gr load development to 200yd.
 
Spine said:
It is definitely on my list to try next. I will take the best loads from above and make the next batch with no crimp whatsoever and compare the results.
Click to expand...

You need to start chrono'ing your loads to see where crimping makes the difference in consistancy.
The BR-4s and the Fed 205m are both good and will provide overall better/ more consistant ignition for your loads.
I'd also recommend ditching the lee stuff (crimp die excluded) and running a Redding match seater and FL sizer dies.
 
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