SWISS SCHMIDT-RUBIN 1889 30WCF GLITCH. PLEASE HELP! I had one awhile ago that I sold. Never fired or even chambered a round, it had a snapped bolt stop/release lever on the right side. I eventually sold it as parts(the guy needed the magazine for his). I think I know how the bolt stop snapped. I've picked up two more since then and they both cycle just fine empty. As soon as you introduce a cartridge(this might make some cringe) It takes a violent and very forceful slam to the bolt to get it to close completely- if the necessary brutal force isn't applied it will stop about 7mm shy of closing and thankfully won't strike the primer. Then even if not fully closed it takes the same hammering effort to open the action. The resulting slam impacts the bolt stop lever violently(eventually probably breaking it). I still have not fired a round for fear they will completely jam. I first thought it might be a headspace issue, but I think the conversion from a rimless to the .30 WCF rimmed cartridge is causing space issues with the extracter sitting farther out but it looks like there is enough of a channel relieved in the breech. PLEASE HELP! These guns I'm told were imported by Winchester as sporters. The '89 having a weaker action than the K11 or K31 but strong enough for the 30wcf. Please tell me this is common and there is a simple fix for this fascinating rifle. Thank you. Joel glassarm1@hotmail.com
Swiss schmidt-rubin 1889 30wcf glitch. Please help!
- Thread starter joelyknives
- Start date
I can remember these being advertised back in the late 60s or early 70s. I think they were converted by Globe Arms under the name Globeco. They also converted some Tokarev 38 and 40 rifles to .303 British. Don't think that Winchester had anything to do with it.
When a rifle is converted to a calibre that it was never originally designed for, then problems can occur. If you are having a major problem with this particular rifle, perhaps it would be better to revert it's status to "wall hanger", and buy a proper Swiss Schmidt-Rubin if you like the action. When these rifles were converted, the scarcity of 7.5x55 ammunition was the problem, much like the ammo problem with the Cooey (Eaton's) Carcano rifles that were converted to 6.5x55 Mannlicher Schoener. Lots of surplus rifles available at very cheap prices, but little market due to no available ammunition, especially hunting ammunition.
Trade-Ex is still advertiseing Swiss military rifles, and Joe Salter had some K-31 rifles. Ammo and reloading components are more available today.
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When a rifle is converted to a calibre that it was never originally designed for, then problems can occur. If you are having a major problem with this particular rifle, perhaps it would be better to revert it's status to "wall hanger", and buy a proper Swiss Schmidt-Rubin if you like the action. When these rifles were converted, the scarcity of 7.5x55 ammunition was the problem, much like the ammo problem with the Cooey (Eaton's) Carcano rifles that were converted to 6.5x55 Mannlicher Schoener. Lots of surplus rifles available at very cheap prices, but little market due to no available ammunition, especially hunting ammunition.
Trade-Ex is still advertiseing Swiss military rifles, and Joe Salter had some K-31 rifles. Ammo and reloading components are more available today.
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"...takes a violent and very forceful slam..." Hi. Sounds like it may not be a .30-30. The .30-30 case is 71 thou smaller than the 7.5 Schmidt-Rubin at the case head. And 150 thou shorter in length. You need to quit beating on it and do a chamber cast.
Globeco's QC was as bad or worse than Century's too. Most of the SVT's they "converted" to .303 have bad headspace.
Globeco's QC was as bad or worse than Century's too. Most of the SVT's they "converted" to .303 have bad headspace.
haywire
I have one in the shop for the same reason as the OP's. The chamber is undersize and I assume the cause is that a insert was used to bush the original 7.5 chamber to 30-30wcf. This is a haywire method at best and I do not consider it safe to shoot. Rick
I have one in the shop for the same reason as the OP's. The chamber is undersize and I assume the cause is that a insert was used to bush the original 7.5 chamber to 30-30wcf. This is a haywire method at best and I do not consider it safe to shoot. Rick
Schmidt Rubin 30-30 problems.
The first beating was to remove the live cartridge. Two more careful beatings were testing it with a proving round. I can drop a cartridge in by hand and it slides in easily right up to the rim and removes easily with a finger nail. Could it be the face of the chamber wasn't rebated properly to allow for the thickness of the rim on the 30-30wcf. Your are right though. I should start with a chamber cast before any more beatings. Does anyone have a source for cerosafe etc.. and directions on how to use? Also I will try fitting the cartridge under the extractor first instead of feeding from the magazine to try and eliminate that possibility.
The first beating was to remove the live cartridge. Two more careful beatings were testing it with a proving round. I can drop a cartridge in by hand and it slides in easily right up to the rim and removes easily with a finger nail. Could it be the face of the chamber wasn't rebated properly to allow for the thickness of the rim on the 30-30wcf. Your are right though. I should start with a chamber cast before any more beatings. Does anyone have a source for cerosafe etc.. and directions on how to use? Also I will try fitting the cartridge under the extractor first instead of feeding from the magazine to try and eliminate that possibility.
"...source for Cerrosafe..." Brownell's, Stateside, for sure. Comes with directions. A half pound block/bar runs $28.99US. It's re-useable stuff though.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=384/Product/CERROSAFE_reg__CHAMBER_CASTING_ALLOY
"...haywire method at best..." Yep. Inserts tend to come out upon extraction too.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=384/Product/CERROSAFE_reg__CHAMBER_CASTING_ALLOY
"...haywire method at best..." Yep. Inserts tend to come out upon extraction too.
Ah, Part II of the story, and perhaps a clue here. You can drop a loaded cartridge into the chamber, and it can be removed easily. HOWEVER, you state that the bolt will not close by about 7mm.
Now, the big question. Have you tried working them through the magazine, or are you only having trouble when you singly load a cartridge directly into the chamber, then attempt to close the bolt?
Some rifles are designed to load properly from the magazine. When you do this, it allows the base of the cartridge to come into contact with the bolt face, and the extractor is far enough out so that the rim slips behind it when the bolt is pushed forward. It might be that there is not enough clearance on the OUTSIDE of the extractor cut to allow the extractor to jump over the rim when loaded singly, and the extractor is jamming between the rim and the outside part.
So, try making sure the extractor is over the rim, and the cartridge face is on the bolt face, then attempt to close the bolt.
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Feed from mag is perfect, extracter function perfect from mag or push feed. When I say the bolt hasn't closed by 7mm-what I mean is the bolt face is directly against the cartridge against the breech, but the base of the bolt handle is 7mm back from its cutout in the right side of the reciever. The outer sleeve of the bolt which rotates w/ the locking lugs hasn't fully cammed via the bolt handle. Here's why(I think).. I can see now with a bright light that the chamber area has a seam where it was drilled out quite a bit and a sleeve or bushing (crudely) installed that is about 2.5mm thick. Where the feed ramp and extracter groove have been ground the surfaces match so I don't think the sleeve has slipped out. After shining a light down the muzzle I can now see what looks like a 1.5mm gap in the chamber where the shoulder of a chambered cartridge would sit( I will confirm once I find a pick or piece of bent wire and see If it catches). I've heard of sticky extraction which makes sense if the brass is bulging into the gap. So quality control seems to be the issue. I think in my case the sleeve wasn't installed deep enough leaving a gap as well as the lips that are essentially the new breech face sticking too far into the reciever leaving not enough head space!
I think I know the outcome for this rifle, but I'm in denial and bummed out. I wish a barrel from a model 94 would thread into this . Joel.
I think I know the outcome for this rifle, but I'm in denial and bummed out. I wish a barrel from a model 94 would thread into this . Joel.
subbed
Have had my eye on one of these...
Ok...for an idiot like me, the story so far:
-Bolt opens and, closes easily when rifle is empty?
-Loose round chambers by gravity easily and, lifts out/extracts easily with fingernail?
-Live round, chambered with bolt encounters "snug" issue (aprox 7mm protrusion) but, feeds from mag easily?
Is that the story so far or, have I missed something?
Have had my eye on one of these...
Ok...for an idiot like me, the story so far:
-Bolt opens and, closes easily when rifle is empty?
-Loose round chambers by gravity easily and, lifts out/extracts easily with fingernail?
-Live round, chambered with bolt encounters "snug" issue (aprox 7mm protrusion) but, feeds from mag easily?
Is that the story so far or, have I missed something?
Get Lucky.
That's about it(don't forget the chamber w/a gap). When these were imported/sportered/chamber sleeved it was at the lowest cost possible which probably precluded testing for headspace. You might get one that was done right. Then again...
That's about it(don't forget the chamber w/a gap). When these were imported/sportered/chamber sleeved it was at the lowest cost possible which probably precluded testing for headspace. You might get one that was done right. Then again...
I just love showing off my idiocy...
I'm having a hard time understanding the 7mm gap. If the gap 'til locked was = to the rim thickness on the shell, issue would be obvious.
Does the rim catch on anything preventing it from getting home? Are your "test rounds" coming out bent/deformed?(possibly chamber not aligned with bolt) Can you actually see the rim get lifted behind the extractor? Curious about chamber cast too...unfired, a space beyond the chamber adapter shouldn't make a big difference...a fired round might "bellow" into it. Certainly wouldn't help extraction!
I've found with any milsurp bolty, you really have to work the action smartly to make it work flawless but, what you describe is beyond that.
Hope one of the gurus come along and, help my tuition free education...
I'm having a hard time understanding the 7mm gap. If the gap 'til locked was = to the rim thickness on the shell, issue would be obvious.
Does the rim catch on anything preventing it from getting home? Are your "test rounds" coming out bent/deformed?(possibly chamber not aligned with bolt) Can you actually see the rim get lifted behind the extractor? Curious about chamber cast too...unfired, a space beyond the chamber adapter shouldn't make a big difference...a fired round might "bellow" into it. Certainly wouldn't help extraction!
I've found with any milsurp bolty, you really have to work the action smartly to make it work flawless but, what you describe is beyond that.
Hope one of the gurus come along and, help my tuition free education...
Glad to see that there are other Nutz that find these old rifles interesting. They are a very intricate action though, kinda like a watch.
I picked up a 30-30 a few years back and experienced similar problems and found the little space at the throat of the chamber too. Not to fear, the chamber bushing is locked in to the old chamber between the barrel and the receiver, it's not coming out and it's not moving.
Biggest problem with these guns is dirt. Dirt in the bolt, dirt in the bolt actuator slide tube (in rec) and in the firing pin grove (also in rec). I found dirt where I didn't know I had places. With the bolt in your hand, pull the cocking ring back until it will turn. Then turn it cw a few degrees and release, you can now disassemble the bolt completely. I have only ever found one way to reassemble it, but it's a bit like a rubics cube, you like a challenge, right.
Take it all apart and clean till it shines, brake cleaner is your friend (but don't get it on the wood finish), then a tiny bit of oil, wiped off.
These old guns in 30-30 shoot fantastic and the action is smooth and fast. I would not mind having another, so if they are so dangerous then they should be cheap. PM me and I will take them off of your hands.
PM me I have one for you. Lots of luck.
I had the same problem it was the extractor that didnt have the clearence to get over the larger rim of the 30-30. filed the tip of the extractor downjust a little and never had a problem again. It wasn't the rim that was the problem but while the extractor was trying to clear the rim it contacted the top of the cavity made in the chamber for the extractor and that would stop the bolt short of locking.
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