Symptom looking for a Cause

ckc123

ckc123

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I seem to be experiencing some FTE's and FTF's, and while I know the problem is related to the bullet, I'm curious as to what would cause it.

1) I'm shooting a load for IPSC in .40 S&W
2) I'm using 4.2 grains of w231 (Consistant, and measured for last 40 rounds)
3) same winchester casings
4) Some rounds have CCI primers, some have WSP
5) Some rounds have excel 180 Grain, and some have winchester 180 grain bullets.

Pattern. with the winchester bullets, (in consistantly, with both primers) the recoil will the very light, and I get an FTE. the difference in feeling the shot is veruy noticable, (feels like about 1/2 the powder charge, but they were all individually measured, so I know it's fine powder wise)

This doesn't happen with either primers, and the excel bullets. it only happens with the Winchester ones.

What should I be looking at for variation in the bullets? Length? diameter?
????????????????????
 
If you KNOW your loads all have the same powder charge, I'd start looking at the differences in your primers (brand-wise, and making sure they're all seated to the same depth), then making sure your bullet crimp is consistent. Which pistol are you shooting these out of, and is it consistently going all the way into battery the same way?
 
Check your OAl, check your crimp, weigh your bullets to make sure everything is equal. one of the problems is make sure you are using the correct load for your Excels. Excels are more like lead bullets. you didn't say whither the Winchesters were lead of FMJ. there is a difference!
 
I think Walter's onto it. Each pistol has it's own minimum required pressure/velocity to cycle the action properly. The Excels (copper plated, I assume) I've used are softer and are easier to push down the barrel, more like a lead alloy bullet. Since your load is about 16% under maximum, I think you'll just need to raise it by a tenth of a grain or two for the Winchesters (which are full metal jacketed, I assume) to function properly. Never exceeding the maximum, of course.
 
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I think it is a jacketing issue as well. Raise the powder for the winchesters and see if that changes things. And if one is lead and one is jacketed then there is the answer for sure.
 
Sounds like you are getting this problem because of a "big void" between the your powder and your bullet? YOu have to remember you are at the min charge 4.2 grains of 231 for 180 bullet. If your OAL is longer than what is recommended, that leaves a lot of void space between the powder and the bullet, which could cause a similar behaviour to what you are experiencing now - "Inconsistency". You might want to bring down your OAL to a safe min, else raise the powder charge a bit more to reduce the void insid the brass. Ideally,there should be no void space between the powder and bullet to attain a good load.
As for your misfires, I dont think it has anything to do with the powder charge. stick to one primer brand for now until you solve one of your problem. Eliminate all the factors of failure one at a time to save you from more grief.
Good luck and reload safely.
 
I'm using a 1.125 OAL for all the loads.

Makes sense about the FMJ vs Copper plating, and the 4.2 already being on the light side..

I'll see if I can find someone with a crony I can borrow for a few days and see what the differences are.

I'm shooting these out of a Springfield xd40, and a buddy of mine tried them in his CZ with no problems (Heavier spring in mind I suspect.)
 
I'm in newmarket.

I was thinking about the "jacketed" vs "plated" last night, and someone please correct me if I'm wring on this..

if the jacked bullet, offers more resistance going down the barrel (thicker copper on the bullet) the pressure in the barrel should be higher, as it has to push hareder to get the bullet out the barrel. with a higher pressure in the chamber, the shells should eject with more force, then with the plated. this is the opposite of what I'm seeing (The fmj's ejecting with less force and causing FTEs)


???
 
PROBLEM SOLVED!!

got a few minutes to weight the bullets, and aftercomparing them side be side, I noticed that the winchester ones where a lot shorter.. WTF?? that right away told me that, the OAL was the same, but the length inside the cartridge (What do you call the volume of space inside the cartridge?)

The problem is the pressue is low due to the extra space in the cartriged, and once I weighted the bullets, I found out that I had 155's not 180's as was written on the cartridge. The thing was mislabled. (written by hand)

i should have weighted them when I was loading the first few. Learned my lesson this this one..

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

e
 
ckc123 said:
PROBLEM SOLVED!!
The problem is the pressue is low due to the extra space in the cartriged, and once I weighted the bullets, I found out that I had 155's not 180's as was written on the cartridge. The thing was mislabled. (written by hand)
e
Click to expand...

CKC.. in your case, the pressure in your reload is low not because of the extra space/volume in your bullet. Your problem is you are not using the specified powder charge for a 155 grain bullet, which should be higher than 4.2 grain for WIN231, the 4.2 is min for 180 grain. Now that you know you have 155 grain win bullet, you should at least use the minimum powder charge designed for 155 grain bullet, which should at least be around 4.8grains of WIN231 & OAL=1.125.

Good luck!


Damn!!!!! I screwed up my winning stage!!!!!!!!
 
but is that not the same thing. The reason the min powder load in a 155 is higher then a 180, is due to the extra space in the cartridge. the more space, the lower the pressure will be, so in order to get the pressue back up you need to have extra powder in the case.

if I were to drop the OAL on the 155's to have the same inner dimensions, then the pressure in the cartridge would be the same (The velocity of the 155 bullet would be higher, since it's lighter.)




nognog said:
CKC.. in your case, the pressure in your reload is low not because of the extra space/volume in your bullet. Your problem is you are not using the specified powder charge for a 155 grain bullet, which should be higher than 4.2 grain for WIN231, the 4.2 is min for 180 grain. Now that you know you have 155 grain win bullet, you should at least use the minimum powder charge designed for 155 grain bullet, which should at least be around 4.8grains of WIN231 & OAL=1.125.

Good luck!


Damn!!!!! I screwed up my winning stage!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
 
A heavier bullet takes less powder because the powder used will create a higher pressure to get the heavier object ( the bullet ) moving . A lighter bullet needs more powder because it starts moving easier so to create the same pressure you need more powder .
You are probably very lucky that your load wasn't the other way around .
all this explains your FTE's but you also said you have FTF's in your original post ? is it also failing to fire ?
 
ckc123 said:
if I were to drop the OAL on the 155's to have the same inner dimensions, then the pressure in the cartridge would be the same (The velocity of the 155 bullet would be higher, since it's lighter.)
Click to expand...

CKC... you have a valid point... BUT... there are limitations as far as how short you can go with your OAL...... It's not as simple as adjusting your powder charge and OAL beyond recommended minimum from the reloading manual to attain the pressure you want.
Follow what is recommended in the reloading manual and you will have less trouble at the range and you will experience a more enjoyable reloading.
 
Nognog:

I wasn't even considering doing it, I was just curious to the mechanics of the pressures, powder charges, OAL's ect. (I know the round won't even feed properly, but I was using that example as to a comparison of space withing the cartridge). I have a nice 180 grain load of IPSC that I'm going to keep ;)..

As you pointed out .. "It's not as simple as" and Its funny how little information you NEED to start reloading, but soon find out there is a lot more to finding , and tweaking that perfect load, and how many differnt factors can effect the performance of the load.
 
Lordy.......:rolleyes:


The space in the case has got little to do with the pressure generated, unless you are making them really short. The amount of powder and the weight of the bullet DO.

Please explain to me which reloading manual failed to have this information in it.

Or perhaps you would like to tell us when you plan on reading the manual you have.

You do have a manual.............
 
Joe, you obviously missed the point of this thread, and for the life of me, I can't seem to understand the point of yours. you don't seem to want to have a meaning full discussion, you just want to insult me.. reloading is not just about reading the tables.. any moron can do that. it's about UNDERSTANDING the mechanics of reloading and ballistics, and thats what I was doing. if you have nothing meaningful to add, then just shut the @!##$ up.
 
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ckc123 said:
Joe, you obviously missed the point of this thread, and for the life of me, I can't seem to understand the point of yours. you don't seem to want to have a meaning full discussion, you just want to insult me.. reloading is not just about reading the tables.. any moron can do that. it's about UNDERSTANDING the mechanics of reloading and ballistics, and thats what I was doing. if you have nothing meaningful to add, then just shut the @!##$ up.
Click to expand...


:p I was refering to the first part of the reloading manual where it explains the mechanics of reloading and ballistics, not the reloading data. Apparently your manual does not have that section..........
 
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