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T97 v SU-16
- Thread starter platnumbob
- Start date
I've played with an SU-16 and the thing patterened like a 12 guage at 100 yards with 5 different types of ammo (shooting off sandbags) so I wouldn't waste my money on one of those. Plus they just feel cheap, I've owned an RFB, a KSG, and a Sub2000 and the SU-16 is similar to the Sub2000 and just feels cheap. The RFB and KSG are ashamed to have the same parents as those two. They are both built very well and worked perfectly.
I have only played with one T97 at the range and handled 2 others, they feel fine and the one I shot seemed reliable and accurate, my problem with them is that I feel they are a disposable gun, they have no warranty other than if the retailer decides to help you out and there is no parts support other than the FTU which just makes the $900 Chinese rifle into a $1300 rifle. Not worth it in my opinion.
I've owned 2 HK SL8-4's and they are very reliable and very accurate for a semi auto. Parts and accessories are expensive and getting service can be frustrating but it will get fixed if you have trouble. They are also a little muzzle heavy and are best used from a bipod or off bags.
My favorite rifle for fairly inexpensive 223 non restricted semi auto fun was my Armalite AR180B-2 which I sold but will be buying back from my buddy soon. It was as accurate as any XCR and was lightweight and reliable.
I wasn't all that impressed with how my Swiss arms grouped but I sold it off before I really gave it a chance and before I tried any other ammo besides AE 55gr black box. The rifle was built very well as you know since you own one but it just didn't live up to the reputation it had. I also hated the 5 MOA POI shift when going from the bipod to shooting off the magazine.
My ACR is a great rifle but after the NR conversion and 2 other NR caliber builds I have a lot of cash tied up in that one. It shoots great though and is super reliable. If I had stopped at just a 223 non restricted conversion I would be sitting under $3000 invested though so it's an option worth looking into.
I haven't owned an XCR but I've shot a few of them and they are a good rifle but the barrel mounting system isn't the best for accuracy. They do as advertised though and wolverine is really standing behind them with some of the best customer support I've seen.
I had a 1987 build stainless Mini 14 ranch and it was very reliable but the mags were expensive and it groups minute of barn door. I hear the newer ones are better but I wouldn't spend my money on one, by the time you buy mags, scope mount and a nice stock for it you could have just bought something better.
Never owned a Tavor but I've shot a few of them. It's a nice rifle but just didn't impress me enough to justify the price tag.
Lots of options for a wide range of prices.
I have only played with one T97 at the range and handled 2 others, they feel fine and the one I shot seemed reliable and accurate, my problem with them is that I feel they are a disposable gun, they have no warranty other than if the retailer decides to help you out and there is no parts support other than the FTU which just makes the $900 Chinese rifle into a $1300 rifle. Not worth it in my opinion.
I've owned 2 HK SL8-4's and they are very reliable and very accurate for a semi auto. Parts and accessories are expensive and getting service can be frustrating but it will get fixed if you have trouble. They are also a little muzzle heavy and are best used from a bipod or off bags.
My favorite rifle for fairly inexpensive 223 non restricted semi auto fun was my Armalite AR180B-2 which I sold but will be buying back from my buddy soon. It was as accurate as any XCR and was lightweight and reliable.
I wasn't all that impressed with how my Swiss arms grouped but I sold it off before I really gave it a chance and before I tried any other ammo besides AE 55gr black box. The rifle was built very well as you know since you own one but it just didn't live up to the reputation it had. I also hated the 5 MOA POI shift when going from the bipod to shooting off the magazine.
My ACR is a great rifle but after the NR conversion and 2 other NR caliber builds I have a lot of cash tied up in that one. It shoots great though and is super reliable. If I had stopped at just a 223 non restricted conversion I would be sitting under $3000 invested though so it's an option worth looking into.
I haven't owned an XCR but I've shot a few of them and they are a good rifle but the barrel mounting system isn't the best for accuracy. They do as advertised though and wolverine is really standing behind them with some of the best customer support I've seen.
I had a 1987 build stainless Mini 14 ranch and it was very reliable but the mags were expensive and it groups minute of barn door. I hear the newer ones are better but I wouldn't spend my money on one, by the time you buy mags, scope mount and a nice stock for it you could have just bought something better.
Never owned a Tavor but I've shot a few of them. It's a nice rifle but just didn't impress me enough to justify the price tag.
Lots of options for a wide range of prices.
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The Swiss Arms is already useless and if you own a SA you will not be happy with either a T-97 or an SU-16. Those are both junk compared to the SA.
The next best thing would be at minimum an XCR or HK SL8-4 then moving up to either a Tavor or a converted ACR.
How about a Famae 540? Lighter then a HK SL8 and NR status with some similarity to a Swiss Arms rifle w/o the legal issues all for the same price (well close to the same) as a Tavor or converted to NR ACR. It's another option to consider for the NR Black Rifle choices available in Canada...
How about a Famae 540? Lighter then a HK SL8 and NR status with some similarity to a Swiss Arms rifle w/o the legal issues all for the same price (well close to the same) as a Tavor or converted to NR ACR. It's another option to consider for the NR Black Rifle choices available in Canada...
Haven't had my hands on one of them yet but what I've read says they aren't built nearly as well as the SA yet they are still $3000. I would wait on one of them until there are more in circulation and we can get some range reports and maybe get to handle one. Also reports of no parts or spare magazine availability.
I'd want one in 7.62 if I was going to spend the money.
Haven't had my hands on one of them yet but what I've read says they aren't built nearly as well as the SA yet they are still $3000. I would wait on one of them until there are more in circulation and we can get some range reports and maybe get to handle one. Also reports of no parts or spare magazine availability.
I hear you regarding the price, what is it and NR black rifle prices in Canada? I suppose if the AR went NR most of these NR rifles would go the way of the Dodo bird and yes I have heard parts and mag.'s in particular are hard to come by with Famae's (well at least currently).
As for the $3,000 price compared to a 'real' Swiss Arms rifle I agree the Famae and a SA are not built equally, so are we are paying for the NR status? Saying that people are paying $2,500+ for a RA XCR which should be priced no more then half of that based on the quality of that rifle, so again are we paying a substantial amount more then we should on NR black rifles just for the NR status and losing out on quality at the same time, Yes obviously.
Our government would make a fortune overnight if they offered the option of converting your restricted AR rifle to Non-Restricted status for a small fee. I personally wouldn't think twice of paying a hundred dollars to have my AR made NR even if the 18.6" barrel was still required (of course then 20" barrels would be hard to come by) and if they changed the barrel limit to say allowing 12"+ to be deemed okay for NR status (over 18.6" for hunting still?) then the AR sales market would explode overnight and RA XCR's would become very difficult to sell. Now I'm not saying we should have to pay for our restricted AR rifles to become non-restricted as they should have never become restricted in the first place.
Okay thread back on topic...
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I hear you regarding the price, what is it and NR black rifle prices in Canada? I suppose if the AR went NR most of these NR rifles would go the way of the Dodo bird and yes I have heard parts and mag.'s in particular are hard to come by with Famae's (well at least currently).
As for the $3,000 price compared to a 'real' Swiss Arms rifle I agree the Famae and a SA are not built equally, so are we are paying for the NR status? Saying that people are paying $2,500+ for a RA XCR which should be priced no more then half of that based on the quality of that rifle, so again are we paying a substantial amount more then we should on NR black rifles just for the NR status and losing out on quality at the same time, Yes obviously.
Our government would make a fortune overnight if they offered the option of converting your restricted AR rifle to Non-Restricted status for a small fee. I personally wouldn't think twice of paying a hundred dollars to have my AR made NR even if the 18.6" barrel was still required (of course then 20" barrels would be hard to come by) and if they changed the barrel limit to say allowing 12"+ to be deemed okay for NR status (over 18.6" for hunting still?) then the AR sales market would explode overnight and RA XCR's would become very difficult to sell. Now I'm not saying we should have to pay for our restricted AR rifles to become non-restricted as they should have never become restricted in the first place.
Okay thread back on topic...
We pay that much because even at that price they fly off the shelves. Why would a retailer lower the price of something they can't keep in stock?
I would also gladly pay a fee to be able to use my AR's away from the range (not that we should have to, they should be non restricted). Might get expensive though since I have 5 of them now.
I don't think there should be any clause about barrel length for anything, a gun is a gun. If I'm responsible enough to own and use one then I should be responsible enough to own and use any regardless of action type or barrel length. It's just as easy to commit a crime with a 22 rimfire as it is with an AR or a handgun. It just takes intent and those with intent don't care what laws the government makes the rest of us follow.
To add to my long post above describing my take on all the NR black rifles I've owned or at least played with. I've also owned a Kriss Vector and for cheap (ammo) fun shooting it was a winner as well. It would eat any ammo I fed it and was accurate enough to ring the 200yd gong at the range with the flip up iron sights fairly regularly once I figured out how much I needed to compensate for elevation.
I currently have an HK USC as my PCC and when I find a deal on a NR barrel it will be getting converted. I like the HK a little better than the Vector but they are both good firearms and if you are in the market for a PCC then I don't think you could go wrong with either.
