Targets
- Thread starter scott_r
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Awesome thanks man...even has pages to input data for my G2 reticle!! Have a good one!!
Is this for your new Bushnell HDMR? If so, you don't need a target with a grid. Your reticle provides the grid where ever you point the scope. Just draw a dot on a piece of paper, shoot a group, measure with the reticle and then adjust the turrets.
This type of target only encourages bad practices... it encourages people to use FFP scopes improperly.
This type of target only encourages bad practices... it encourages people to use FFP scopes improperly.
Mines just the DMR with G2. Curious to know why its bad practise? I dont want to start any bad habits. I was thinking once you get out past 400 yards a .22 hole is hard to see in your scope for correction.
Cheers!!
You're not correcting off of bullet holes, you're correcting off of bullet swirl and impact splashes. Those are all that you have in field shooting. It's a poor practice to think about things based on a linear distances, and to reference them to the size of your target. This is strongly discouraged with an FFP scope as it's a square range technique that falls apart in unknown distance field shooting when a stressor is added (like time). Converting from inches or cm is an unnecessary extra step that takes time and is prone to error. And there is no grid on targets in real life or in PRS style matches.
Mils and MOA are angles. There is no reason to ever relate them to linear distances when adjusting scope clicks on an FFP scope. When you're shooting unknown distance field oriented matches, the distances are rarely ever evenly divisible by 100. Target size is often not known or it is not known with certainty. If the target isn't the size you think it is, your estimated size of the miss is going to be wrong. If you ranged the target with your reticle, your range will also be wrong because the target size you used to calculate it was wrong. Your range can also be wrong with a laser rangefinder if you picked up something in front or in back of your target instead of your target. So, if you're calculating a correction based on a target size reference, you're calculating that correction using an incorrect estimate of the miss and/or an incorrect distance. And you stand a good chance of messing up the conversion math, especially under stress. The reticle will accurately tell you what the miss is even if you got the ranging wrong. It doesn't care about the target's size or its shape or what distance it's at. Doesn't matter what the distance is. Using the reticle is MORE accurate than basing things off of target size and it doesn't lie. What you see, is what you get. The reticle is angular in nature, it adjusts itself for distance on it's own. And it's in the same units are your turrets (which are also in angles not inches or cm). 1 mil on the reticle is the same as 1 mil on the turret AT ANY DISTANCE. No conversion from inches or cm is necessary.
What you measure with your reticle, can be put directly into the turret without needing to know the distance. And whatever you dial on the turret can be held over, held under and held off on the reticle. You can do combinations of the two.
Lets say you had 5 targets and they required the following elevations: 0.4mil, 3.2mil, 3.7mil, 4.3 mil, and 6.1 mil. If you were given 60 seconds to shoot all of these targets twice, and had to change position for each target, a good approach might be:
Hold 0.4mil high with the reticle, with the turret set to 0.0mil for the first target,
Set the turret to 4.0mils and hold 0.8mil under for the second target, 0.3mil under for the 3rd target and 0.3mil over for the fourth target.
Set the turret to 6.1mils and hold center if the target looks very small or hold 2.1mils over without making another turret adjustment if it seems more generous (they're often different shapes, sometimes shaped like an animal) or if you're running out of time.
Your wind hold off value will also tell you wind speed once you get on target. Once you know what your wind hold was for one target, you can reference what the wind speed is for that distance using your dope chart, and then select the right wind hold off for the next target at the next distance. It becomes a very fluid thought process when using the reticle for wind hold-offs because you're thinking about the absolute value of the wind adjustment and not an incremental correction. Your wind hold-off for that distance is the last thing you see before taking your eye away from the scope. How many inches it was out at the target doesn't matter, you've already got it in mils and that is what's in your dope chart.
Mils and MOA are angles. There is no reason to ever relate them to linear distances when adjusting scope clicks on an FFP scope. When you're shooting unknown distance field oriented matches, the distances are rarely ever evenly divisible by 100. Target size is often not known or it is not known with certainty. If the target isn't the size you think it is, your estimated size of the miss is going to be wrong. If you ranged the target with your reticle, your range will also be wrong because the target size you used to calculate it was wrong. Your range can also be wrong with a laser rangefinder if you picked up something in front or in back of your target instead of your target. So, if you're calculating a correction based on a target size reference, you're calculating that correction using an incorrect estimate of the miss and/or an incorrect distance. And you stand a good chance of messing up the conversion math, especially under stress. The reticle will accurately tell you what the miss is even if you got the ranging wrong. It doesn't care about the target's size or its shape or what distance it's at. Doesn't matter what the distance is. Using the reticle is MORE accurate than basing things off of target size and it doesn't lie. What you see, is what you get. The reticle is angular in nature, it adjusts itself for distance on it's own. And it's in the same units are your turrets (which are also in angles not inches or cm). 1 mil on the reticle is the same as 1 mil on the turret AT ANY DISTANCE. No conversion from inches or cm is necessary.
What you measure with your reticle, can be put directly into the turret without needing to know the distance. And whatever you dial on the turret can be held over, held under and held off on the reticle. You can do combinations of the two.
Lets say you had 5 targets and they required the following elevations: 0.4mil, 3.2mil, 3.7mil, 4.3 mil, and 6.1 mil. If you were given 60 seconds to shoot all of these targets twice, and had to change position for each target, a good approach might be:
Hold 0.4mil high with the reticle, with the turret set to 0.0mil for the first target,
Set the turret to 4.0mils and hold 0.8mil under for the second target, 0.3mil under for the 3rd target and 0.3mil over for the fourth target.
Set the turret to 6.1mils and hold center if the target looks very small or hold 2.1mils over without making another turret adjustment if it seems more generous (they're often different shapes, sometimes shaped like an animal) or if you're running out of time.
Your wind hold off value will also tell you wind speed once you get on target. Once you know what your wind hold was for one target, you can reference what the wind speed is for that distance using your dope chart, and then select the right wind hold off for the next target at the next distance. It becomes a very fluid thought process when using the reticle for wind hold-offs because you're thinking about the absolute value of the wind adjustment and not an incremental correction. Your wind hold-off for that distance is the last thing you see before taking your eye away from the scope. How many inches it was out at the target doesn't matter, you've already got it in mils and that is what's in your dope chart.
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Yeah... words sometimes don't convey it in the best way. Let me add a graphic I stole off the internet...
This is an old school mildot reticle, but it illustrates the point. If this is an FFP scope, you need to adjust 1.3mil up and 1.9mil left to hit the target. Doesn't matter what the distance is. Doesn't matter if it's at 100 yards, 237 meter or 1128 feet, the correction is 1.3mil up and 1.9mil left. The mils in your reticle are the same as the mils on your turret. No thinking about inches or cm and no math conversions required.
Whatever you can dial with your turrets, you can hold with your reticle. The mils in your reticle are the same as the mils on your turrets.
Newer reticles have 0.5 mil and 0.2 mil subdivision that make it easier to do more precise holds.
This is an old school mildot reticle, but it illustrates the point. If this is an FFP scope, you need to adjust 1.3mil up and 1.9mil left to hit the target. Doesn't matter what the distance is. Doesn't matter if it's at 100 yards, 237 meter or 1128 feet, the correction is 1.3mil up and 1.9mil left. The mils in your reticle are the same as the mils on your turret. No thinking about inches or cm and no math conversions required.
Whatever you can dial with your turrets, you can hold with your reticle. The mils in your reticle are the same as the mils on your turrets.
Newer reticles have 0.5 mil and 0.2 mil subdivision that make it easier to do more precise holds.
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Well worded Kombayotch, I have similar discussions with guys trying to get them to stop looking at a target and saying "that looks like it is about 6" low so at 400M that's approximately this many mils or moa, blah blah blah." Then a bad adjustment is made or they waste a bunch of ammo trying to zero the rifle.
Measure with your reticle, apply the correction exactly as it is "read" through the reticle, its faster, more accurate, and less confusing.
Measure with your reticle, apply the correction exactly as it is "read" through the reticle, its faster, more accurate, and less confusing.
No it can be used on a SFP scope, however the scope MUST be set to the correct magnification for the reticle to be the correct dimensions. Don't take what the scope manufacturer has written on the scope or the instructions either, It will be very close, and may very well be bang on. But check it to make sure.
Also assuming that the turrets match the reticle.
FFP is only mandatory if you want to be able to do this on any magnification setting on your scope. Most other scipes with have a set magnification where your mil scale will be accurate. Read your instruction manual and it should be written in there somewhere.
PitBull1973
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So how about a scope with MOA turrets and mil reticle.?
Easiest to just round if you have a mismatched system. Not as accurate as a matched system, but no worse than estimating linear distances and doing math. Still faster.
.25 Mils = 1 MOA
.5 Mils = 2 MOA
.75 Mils = 3 MOA
1 Mils = 4 MOA
FFP is about being able to use the reticle for this and many other things at any magnification. Maximum magnification is seldom ideal. Taking your cheek off the stock to check an adjustment (turret or magnification) requires you to search for your target again, and that wastes time. And being off of a magnification setting by as little as 1/16" is enough to cause a miss if you are trying to use half or quarter settings with an SFP scope to try and use the reticle in the same way. You have to set the magnification accurately and map it to ensure the markings are correct. They are usually off...
I can't count how many times I've come across someone struggling with a mil/mil FFP scope trying to "think in metric". Once you show them that you can use just the reticle, the light goes on and they realize how much easier it is than the way they were doing it.
.25 Mils = 1 MOA
.5 Mils = 2 MOA
.75 Mils = 3 MOA
1 Mils = 4 MOA
FFP is about being able to use the reticle for this and many other things at any magnification. Maximum magnification is seldom ideal. Taking your cheek off the stock to check an adjustment (turret or magnification) requires you to search for your target again, and that wastes time. And being off of a magnification setting by as little as 1/16" is enough to cause a miss if you are trying to use half or quarter settings with an SFP scope to try and use the reticle in the same way. You have to set the magnification accurately and map it to ensure the markings are correct. They are usually off...
I can't count how many times I've come across someone struggling with a mil/mil FFP scope trying to "think in metric". Once you show them that you can use just the reticle, the light goes on and they realize how much easier it is than the way they were doing it.
PitBull1973
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I don't know why I bought a scope mil/MOA but I was new to the game. For my current build its for sure I won't make that mistake again
There is a terrible unfamiliarity with FFP scopes in Canada because all of our ranges are fixed distance ranges that only allow you to shoot at one distance at a time. And there really aren't any huge advantages if that is the only kind of shooting you're doing. You can get away with a lot of bad practices because all of the targetry is canned to allow you to do so. If we had ranges like they do in the US where you can go out and drop a bunch of targets at random distances and then have matches to see who can shoot them the fastest, more people would understand how FFP scopes are used and why they are much, much more efficient in real life field oriented shooting. Especially if we had the mechanical mover systems that can present several targets at different distances that are moving at different speeds.
The proper way to lead movers is with an angular lead, not a linear lead in inches:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...FFP-vs-SFP?p=11084107&viewfull=1#post11084107
If you look at the mover leads in AE mobile or iSnipe, they are in mils or MOA, not inches. ^that is why. Use the reticle, it's WAY easier!
If you want to turn the rifle on it's side and shoot urban prone, the easiest way is to apply an offset to the turrets that brings the POI to the horizontal crosshair with a height over bore offset and then just use the vertical crosshair for holdovers.
The proper way to lead movers is with an angular lead, not a linear lead in inches:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...FFP-vs-SFP?p=11084107&viewfull=1#post11084107
If you look at the mover leads in AE mobile or iSnipe, they are in mils or MOA, not inches. ^that is why. Use the reticle, it's WAY easier!
If you want to turn the rifle on it's side and shoot urban prone, the easiest way is to apply an offset to the turrets that brings the POI to the horizontal crosshair with a height over bore offset and then just use the vertical crosshair for holdovers.
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PitBull1973
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Thanks for the info it's pretty detailed. As much as I would love to shoot PRS I just don't see it happening here in Ontario. At this point I want to be as good as I can with PR
