the_klenzer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
Most of you guys remember my question about whether or not I should leave my Tavor as my competition gun in favour of an AR. No? Here's 24 pages worth of AR vs Tavor fighting. 
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...r-me-to-leave-the-Tavor?highlight=leave+tavor
The summary is... Everyone loves the Tavor. I love mine. It looks awesome. However... I've been competing with it in tactical rifle matches for the last 2 years and during that it's always had what I call "Tavor moments". Not malfunctions (excluding mag related ones), but just little things that cost time. Anyway, after the last match where I placed a dismal 19th (I usually am around 6-9th), I decided that I would try shooting an AR in competition... and yesterday, that's exactly what I did.
Now, my AR hasn't left my safe in 2013. I've maybe put 200 rounds down ARs in the last year (mostly just a mag or two at PoCo from someone elses gun). I spent about 10 minutes refamiliarizing myself with it and doing maybe 50 dry mag changes the night before. It went into the safe zeroed so I was hoping it would come out that way.
And I went to the match. Now, at this point, I'm going to put my flame suit on.
I want to note that my impression is PURELY from a competition/active perspective. Not hunting or shooting standing at a public range with no pressure. The legality of NR is not relevant in this thread. This is about the worth of the gun while shooting UNDER PRESSURE... because that's where we make mistakes, not sitting on a bench. "Shooter are you read?" BEEEEP. RUN, RUN, SHOOT, MOVE, SHOOT, RELOAD, SHOOT, SPRINT, SHOOT.
Sooo..... If you want to chime in with an opinion, please keep it relative to your competition experience and not how your Tavor looks awesome in your truck or how many 'yotes it gets or how your girlfriend things it's awesome (she said the same about mine).
Next, this is as apples to apples a Tavor vs AR review is going to get, here's what I shoot:
Tavor $2700 + NEA forend + top rail + Viper Vortex PST 1-4x scope ($550) + Burris Fastfire 2 offset scope.
Noveske N3 10.5" $2400 (?) + Trijicon 1-4x ($900)
(pic is from before I mounted the Trijicon 1-4x)
Last disclaimer. I'm going to try to be impartial. For years I was biased in favour of the Tavor. Part of me still wants the Tavor to win this. But I will tell you the truth.
Here's how yesterday's shoot went.
1st stage: Standard clean, fast stage. Was still getting the feel for the gun. I think I shot in the top 3 in our squad.
2nd stage - shot from weak hand. People say you can't shoot the Tavor offhand... it's not true. I've shot many stages offhand. You need to keep your face back a tiny bit and cheek weld does suffer a touch, thus aim is slower, but it's doable without eating brass (depending on optics of course). The AR on the other hand -should- be trickier as the controls are now opposite your free hand, trigger finger doesn't reach mag release, etc... However, in this stage (IIRC) I shot with only a single target penalty (this was a user fault) with a very good time. I did forget a flag pull which also cost me.
3rd. Fastest time in squad - zero penalties.
4th. I was first up to shoot and took my time a bit, which cost me, but still ran with zero penalties.
So here's my summary and impressions, in no particular order:
-In the whole shoot I had ZERO "moments". Even shooting offhanded. Not a blip.
-In my 2 years shooting the Tavor, I've NEVER had a match where I've had zero penalties TWICE. I have many thoughts on this and I can only sum it up by describing the following.
For some reason, despite the awesome shortness, the sight picture of the Tavor always feels... floaty. Like it is so light the slightest breath will dip the barrel up and down just enough to throw you (me) off. When an inch can cost you a 3 point penalty, the losses add up. I'm not that tacticoool so I can't describe it much better than this... the AR just feels solid, locked down. I dunno...
-The controls (bolt/mag release) on the AR are small... tiny. Easy to miss if you are doing something like mag changing while running. The controls on the Tavor are giant and unmissable. HOWEVER... The bolt release on the Tavor is easy to hit by accident and a PITA to lock. The mag release (yeah I know how to hit it) still just doesn't feel as "right" as the AR does. Next, and here's where the Tavor owners can flame me... the controls on the AR are where controls SHOULD BE. IN FRONT OF YOU, so you can see them when s--t is going wrong! As I said in my previous thread, when everything goes right, both guns are great, but it's when something goes wrong that the Tavor really penalizes you.
-Now I need to write something nice about the Tavor. Shooting an AR all day really makes me appreciate the balance of a bullpup. I think my Tavor is heavier than the AR, but honestly anyone with one could shoot a stage one handed. Damn they are well balanced and the AR is nose heavy. And yeah, I work out.
So that's my thoughts. In a nutshell, I think the guys who love the Tavor, love them because they never have to use them in any type of pressure situation where stress causes mistakes. However, if I ever had to be in a real gunfight, I have 100% reversed my position, and would absolutely take the AR. It's a gunfighting tool. The Tavor isn't. Unless you're military and the gov't is giving you 10,000 rounds a year to practice with. In that case you'd probably be equal to any AR user by virtue of massive familiarity. I'd say it's a safe bet that not many people in Canada fit that description (except maybe TV-PP .
For the SHTF theorists... I would never take a rifle in a SHTF situation that I wouldn't take to a gunfight. That discounts the Tavor for me. Would I take the AR instead? No. But only because I haven't actively shot one long enough to know it's failure point. I'd still take a VZ58. But the window between the two is a lot closer.
Last disclaimer. I'm not a soldier, I'm not an operator and I've never risked life and limb defending a shopping mall - which is to say - take my opinion with a grain of salt, it's just that, an opinion. I'm just a guy who like to shoot a bit in competition so also please pardon incorrect uses of gun related terms like shoulder things that go up and offball subjective descriptions. And as I said before, I don't have a lot of time behind an AR, but I do have a bit of competition time and more than a few rounds of training ammo behind the Tavor so I wouldn't consider myself "new" to it (at least by CGN terms).
And now, I zip up my flame suit and hide under my desk.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...r-me-to-leave-the-Tavor?highlight=leave+tavor
The summary is... Everyone loves the Tavor. I love mine. It looks awesome. However... I've been competing with it in tactical rifle matches for the last 2 years and during that it's always had what I call "Tavor moments". Not malfunctions (excluding mag related ones), but just little things that cost time. Anyway, after the last match where I placed a dismal 19th (I usually am around 6-9th), I decided that I would try shooting an AR in competition... and yesterday, that's exactly what I did.
Now, my AR hasn't left my safe in 2013. I've maybe put 200 rounds down ARs in the last year (mostly just a mag or two at PoCo from someone elses gun). I spent about 10 minutes refamiliarizing myself with it and doing maybe 50 dry mag changes the night before. It went into the safe zeroed so I was hoping it would come out that way.
And I went to the match. Now, at this point, I'm going to put my flame suit on.
I want to note that my impression is PURELY from a competition/active perspective. Not hunting or shooting standing at a public range with no pressure. The legality of NR is not relevant in this thread. This is about the worth of the gun while shooting UNDER PRESSURE... because that's where we make mistakes, not sitting on a bench. "Shooter are you read?" BEEEEP. RUN, RUN, SHOOT, MOVE, SHOOT, RELOAD, SHOOT, SPRINT, SHOOT.
Sooo..... If you want to chime in with an opinion, please keep it relative to your competition experience and not how your Tavor looks awesome in your truck or how many 'yotes it gets or how your girlfriend things it's awesome (she said the same about mine).
Next, this is as apples to apples a Tavor vs AR review is going to get, here's what I shoot:
Tavor $2700 + NEA forend + top rail + Viper Vortex PST 1-4x scope ($550) + Burris Fastfire 2 offset scope.
Noveske N3 10.5" $2400 (?) + Trijicon 1-4x ($900)
(pic is from before I mounted the Trijicon 1-4x)
Last disclaimer. I'm going to try to be impartial. For years I was biased in favour of the Tavor. Part of me still wants the Tavor to win this. But I will tell you the truth.
Here's how yesterday's shoot went.
1st stage: Standard clean, fast stage. Was still getting the feel for the gun. I think I shot in the top 3 in our squad.
2nd stage - shot from weak hand. People say you can't shoot the Tavor offhand... it's not true. I've shot many stages offhand. You need to keep your face back a tiny bit and cheek weld does suffer a touch, thus aim is slower, but it's doable without eating brass (depending on optics of course). The AR on the other hand -should- be trickier as the controls are now opposite your free hand, trigger finger doesn't reach mag release, etc... However, in this stage (IIRC) I shot with only a single target penalty (this was a user fault) with a very good time. I did forget a flag pull which also cost me.
3rd. Fastest time in squad - zero penalties.
4th. I was first up to shoot and took my time a bit, which cost me, but still ran with zero penalties.
So here's my summary and impressions, in no particular order:
-In the whole shoot I had ZERO "moments". Even shooting offhanded. Not a blip.
-In my 2 years shooting the Tavor, I've NEVER had a match where I've had zero penalties TWICE. I have many thoughts on this and I can only sum it up by describing the following.
For some reason, despite the awesome shortness, the sight picture of the Tavor always feels... floaty. Like it is so light the slightest breath will dip the barrel up and down just enough to throw you (me) off. When an inch can cost you a 3 point penalty, the losses add up. I'm not that tacticoool so I can't describe it much better than this... the AR just feels solid, locked down. I dunno...
-The controls (bolt/mag release) on the AR are small... tiny. Easy to miss if you are doing something like mag changing while running. The controls on the Tavor are giant and unmissable. HOWEVER... The bolt release on the Tavor is easy to hit by accident and a PITA to lock. The mag release (yeah I know how to hit it) still just doesn't feel as "right" as the AR does. Next, and here's where the Tavor owners can flame me... the controls on the AR are where controls SHOULD BE. IN FRONT OF YOU, so you can see them when s--t is going wrong! As I said in my previous thread, when everything goes right, both guns are great, but it's when something goes wrong that the Tavor really penalizes you.
-Now I need to write something nice about the Tavor. Shooting an AR all day really makes me appreciate the balance of a bullpup. I think my Tavor is heavier than the AR, but honestly anyone with one could shoot a stage one handed. Damn they are well balanced and the AR is nose heavy. And yeah, I work out.
So that's my thoughts. In a nutshell, I think the guys who love the Tavor, love them because they never have to use them in any type of pressure situation where stress causes mistakes. However, if I ever had to be in a real gunfight, I have 100% reversed my position, and would absolutely take the AR. It's a gunfighting tool. The Tavor isn't. Unless you're military and the gov't is giving you 10,000 rounds a year to practice with. In that case you'd probably be equal to any AR user by virtue of massive familiarity. I'd say it's a safe bet that not many people in Canada fit that description (except maybe TV-PP
.For the SHTF theorists... I would never take a rifle in a SHTF situation that I wouldn't take to a gunfight. That discounts the Tavor for me. Would I take the AR instead? No. But only because I haven't actively shot one long enough to know it's failure point. I'd still take a VZ58. But the window between the two is a lot closer.
Last disclaimer. I'm not a soldier, I'm not an operator and I've never risked life and limb defending a shopping mall - which is to say - take my opinion with a grain of salt, it's just that, an opinion. I'm just a guy who like to shoot a bit in competition so also please pardon incorrect uses of gun related terms like shoulder things that go up and offball subjective descriptions. And as I said before, I don't have a lot of time behind an AR, but I do have a bit of competition time and more than a few rounds of training ammo behind the Tavor so I wouldn't consider myself "new" to it (at least by CGN terms).
And now, I zip up my flame suit and hide under my desk.
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