Teflon wraped .458 bullets

bobv

bobv

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I tried some thing yesterday that I picked up on the "Cast Boolits" forum. It consists of wraping Teflon tape ,that you use on pipe threads, around undersized cast bullets, like paper patching. I have some 340 Lee bullets(.458) that I had resized to .452 to use in a 45LC rifle load. I wraped the bullets a couple turns , resized them to .458, coated them with Lee Alox, loaded them over some 5744. Worked out great!!! Might try some 405 gr next time . I shot them in my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 45-70
Bob
 
Bob, I'm all for experimenting with new ideas but at the same time curious as to what you think you've gained by the use of thread tape on an undersized bullet over a properly sized bullet with a good bullet lube. The purpose of paper patching was so that higher velocities could be attained without fouling. What velocity did you load to, and did the use of the Teflon tape prevent fouling. What kind of accuracy did you observe, and was that accuracy an improvement over your previous observations when bullets were lubed and sized to full caliber when fired at the same velocity?

My problem is that I believe that any time you introduce another variable to the problem such as adding Teflon tape to a cast bullet or moly coating a jacketed bullet, that the disadvantages often out weigh the benefits.
 
A shooting friend, hs4570, introduced me to a process along that line and I still have a copy of an article he gave me. I tried it a little but it seemed a little to time consuming for my liking. The article he gave me is Patching Cast Bullets with Teflon by Curtis L. Wilson and came from an '86 edition of the handloader. I'd suggest giving him a PM if you have questions as he has used the process quite a bit.
 
The purpose wasn't so much as to what I gained but would it work...As I stated I had these bullets lying around that I wasn't using, so instead of melting them down I decided to try the tape thing. I didn't check the velocity and try to shot any groups. Let's just call it an experiment. Sometimes it just "fun" to try something different. Nothing gained...nothing lost:rolleyes:
Bob
 
I 'believe' hs4570 used the teflon wrap on unsized bullets, probably 0.001" or 0.002" over bore diameter, but I'm just guessing. And I think the loads were fairly light. Anyway, as I recall, he had great success with it.
 
As I mentioned earlier , I didn't really try to group them but next time I'll try and compare with ordinary sized bullets. I believe mine were .458-.459 . I might run some 405gr tru my .452 sizer and wrap to see also how they shoot
Bob
 
I have experimented with teflon tape as a patch and diff. papers just like in the 1800s, my findings are that a properly sized grease groove bullet will out shoot a bullet that has been patched up. The only place where i saw any advantage is when you just don't have a bullet big enough for the bore. Cartridges like the 577/450 have a large bore size of say .475", and regular .458" bullets can be patched up to fit with paper of the right thickness. The teflon tape mentioned earlier is too thin for this purpose.
 
bobv said:
As I mentioned earlier , I didn't really try to group them but next time I'll try and compare with ordinary sized bullets. I believe mine were .458-.459 . I might run some 405gr tru my .452 sizer and wrap to see also how they shoot
Bob
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Again, I haven't talked to hs4570 lately, but I 'believe' the bullets he used had not been sized and as such, were slightly over size. From my previous discussions with him on the topic and from what I see in the hard copy of the article on it, the teflon tape isn't actually used to increase the bullet diameter as in a traditional sence of the term 'patching' but more as a lubricant. That & its non stick qualities being a primary characteristic of teflon.
 
Teflon Tape

Mr Boomer and Mr Hunchak....no doubt your respective expertice in cast bullet shooting has brought you to your own conclusions as to what works for you and what doesn't.

I have been shooting Teflon wrapped Cast bullets for well over a decade now pricipally in 45/70 and .444 Marlin and also in various .30 calibers. This came as a result of finding and reading the article Johnn Peterson refers to from HANDLOADER magazine that I gave him. This article was written by people that have far more expertice than I do and no doubt more than most on this forum.

In this article they shot cast and taped bullets in various calibers includeing the 45/70 and the 30/06. To test their findings they shot cast out of the 30-06 to 2800 fps at length....no comment was given as to accuracy at this speed but they found that after shooting a lot of taped cast even at this speed that absolutely no leading occured. Their iniitial intent was to use the T tape as lube for cast and this unique byproduct of no leading at very high speed was observed.

I loaded up 20 30/06 rounds with a max load of IMR 4895 with 155 gr gas checked cast..put two wraps of tape on them and shot them at the range in about 7-8 minutes. Chrony registered all shots over 3000 fps. Barrel was shiney and no leading whatsoever at this speed so I felt this was a good way to lube bullets.
Most of my cast shooting is under 2200 fps in my 45/70 and .444..however a lot of my .30 caliber shooting is about 2500 fps. I have shot several thousand cast bullets with Tape and every rifle has a clean shiney bore from useing it...there are no lead deposits, ever, to scrub out.

I have found that by tapeing bullets from undersize 44 magnum molds that excellent accuracy is easily available in my .444 cast at .429 to .432 taped and all up to the limits/speeds that loading manuals provide data for.

I get as much speed in any caliber I want in search of higher than normal cast velocities and acceptable accuracy... and all the rest at a more modest velocity and all without leading and no scrubbing required ever.

Cast bullet shooting as most know is an extensive learning curve in the pursuit of accuracy...Teflon tapeing has allowed me to arrive at excelent accuracy with just about any cast bullet I make regardless of caliber and I don't have to search for the Holy Grail of lubricants...is the bullet fitting just right...why are there so many variables that can affect my shooting results.. and the list goes on.

Tapeing works regardless of case used.. primer type used and just about any powder combination that will propel a bullet down range. The point is the search for an accurate load is so much easier and you don't get leading at low or high speed while your shooting your rifles looking for accurate loads.

Teflon tape is its own lubricant..its own " patching" to increase bullet diameter if you need it and isn't messy like other lubes can be

For those that want to shorten the learning curve ... you may just want to try Teflon Tape.

And for those who have already found the Holy Grail in ALL aspects of cast shooting ... feel free to disregard these findings.

edit....for those that like to shoot subsonic plinker loads.. Teflon Tape and cast bullets is a natural...have taken down 500 gr Lee GC to under 250 fps with all 10 bullets clearing the 22 inch brl. however, acuracy was found at 4.5 grains Bullseye at 450 fps /50 yards.

Cheers
 
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hs4570..
I tried patching with teflon tape in the past and always ended up making a mess as the tape wants to twist and stick on itself...Figuring you were a memember of castboolits.com I scanned your posts and found this thread
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=16163
I see you recommend using a desk top scotch-tape dispenser to handle the tape so I will give that a try...
I still have a few questions if you don't mind?
--I note that you don't size your boolits before taping...do you run them thru a sizer before loading?
--What alloy mix and BHN are you using for you 2500fps .30 cal. boolits and do you hunt with them?
Thanks...
:)
 
Teflon/rough bores.

This procedure was brought to my attention in a book titled " The Winchester Lever Legacy " by Clyde "Snooky" Williamson (1987). It starts out with a application to the U.S. patent office for a patent of this procedure. His opening paragraph reads..."The purpose of this procedure is to improve upon the accuracy of rifles and pistols that have rough bores, pitted bores or otherwise, lead the bore simply will not shoot cast or swaged bullets at velocities high enough to achieve maxinum useful potential for the cartridge/rifle/pistol combination". I have found from personal experience this to work in my lever guns with woren bores. As for the tape unraveling he wraps the bullet with two layers and then takes a lighter and heats the tape until the lube (bullets are prelubed) starts to bleed through. Keep in mind your'e twisting the bullet through the flame. This shrinks and tightens the tape around the bullet and only takes a few seconds exposed to the flame. As hs4570 says the bore is spotless and with a good bore I can't see why you couldn't use/do with these the same as jacketed bullets.

With these a generous belling and chamfering is in order and with gas check models he puts them on after the tape has been applied.

WS
 
The Art of Bullet Casting from Handloader + Rifle magazines 1966-1981 have a three page section on high velocity loads using teflon tape.This is nothing new and tried and true. The tape is applied before sizing and seating the gas check.The tape clad bullet can be sized without tearing,scuffing or any deformation of the tape.Provides increased velocity without leading.Harold
 
I sense that alot of people don't like to be challenged on this site, even in a friendly and constructive way. I merely suggested that in my experience, and having tested/shot cast bullets for 40 years i have yet to see where introducing another variable like a patch, whether teflon or otherwise has improved accuracy. Most of my testing involves very accurate Benchguns that can produce many groups of under .5" with cast bullets, and they too have been subject to the teflon experiments. If one looks at the winners equip. list In CBA benchrest competition you will not see one person using any form of a patch on their bullet of teflon or other material.
 
ben hunchak said:
I sense that alot of people don't like to be challenged on this site, even in a friendly and constructive way.
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Ben..
I don't see where you have any reason to make the above statement....:confused:
hs4570 and others are just stating their experience as you were stating yours and not in a confrontational way...
sad really...:(
 
Teflon

Mr Nrut....Thanks for posting the link..saves some time in explaining the tapeing proceedure to those who may wish to try it out.

And thanks to the others for provideing their knowledge of the tapeing proceedure and history.

I usually tape unsized bullets in the 45/70 and .444 but have also sized them and then taped. Saw limited difference in apreciable accuracy in most of these rifles so by skipping the sizeing the proceedure was made faster. You can try it both ways and see what works best in your rifle.

You can also apply the tape first and then run it through your sizer to apply the gas check. You will have to try this first to see if it works best for you or is just a more convenient method of installing checks,

I use a Nose first Push Through " Lee" .458 and .429 sizer (16$ ) to seat checks on my cast in these calibers. However, I reverse the bullet and push it up into the respective sizer base first just enough to seat the check and have a plastic dowel to tap the bullet out once the GC is seated and then tape them when I have several hundred done.

The plastic (wooden one works fine too) dowel has a thin bolt cross piece attached in the upper end thats slightly wider than the sizer die. This allows it to remain in the die as you push up to seat the Check and then just tap it to drop the bullet and it won't fall through the die...saves labour and time.

I mainly use straight wheelweights and drop them out of the mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water to harden them and this serves me well for most applications of tapeing/shooting.

I have taped cast pure lead and it works very well accuracy wise also in the large calibers. Have also added a bit of linotype to the wheelweights for more hardness and this works well in the .30 calibers but not necessary in the 45/70 as you can get all the speed you want without it.

I have shot several deer but nothing larger with cast in the 45/70.

Useing the ballasted scotch tape dispenser is a must, as you know, the tape wants to twist and stick together if you try applying it with just your fingers.

I don't own any target rifles..just a collection of hunting rifles and if I can get cast to shoot under 1.5 inch at 100 yds with the tape I' m happy...and of the 5 rifles I mainly shoot cast out of will do this and some even under an inch on my good range days.

As stated by others..this tapeing is nothing new..like everything else shooting related ...just re-discovered by the next generation. Just like makeing pure lead soft nose and wheel weight hard shanked cast bullets for superior mushrooming capabilities for shooting game which I first read about in the 1970's thats being rediscovered by some now..but thats a different thread/topic and can be started by the next finder of old information.

Cheers
 
NRUT.....your concern does not address the problem of intro. unneeded variables to cast bullet projectiles especially ones that have proven to be ineffective and just a waste of time. Anyone who has spent countless hrs./days/years striving for the last bit of accuracy from cast bullets under benchrest conditions, knows what the effect of introducing this type of variable would be. We are at a place where 1 ragged hole grps. are fairly common with a properly used grease groove bullet, either with fixed ammo or breach seated and don't buy into these gimics.
 
ben hunchak said:
NRUT.....your concern does not address the problem of intro. unneeded variables to cast bullet projectiles especially ones that have proven to be ineffective and just a waste of time. Anyone who has spent countless hrs./days/years striving for the last bit of accuracy from cast bullets under benchrest conditions, knows what the effect of introducing this type of variable would be. We are at a place where 1 ragged hole grps. are fairly common with a properly used grease groove bullet, either with fixed ammo or breach seated and don't buy into these gimics.
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I'll take this one..

I may be mistaken... but I don't believe any one is questioning your time.. work and effort in achieving the accuracy you have found with your bench-guns. But.. no one is discussing Bench rest groups.

Most people don't want to spend years trying to find what you have achieved because most are just shooting cast in their hunting rifles and good Hunting/Target accuracy is what they want...this can be achieved useing your methods and other ways.. includeing Teflon Tape.

If we had a benchrest/cast bullet section on this forum no doubt Teflon tape would not enter the equation. You may want to suggest/discuss this and they may set one up for you.

Cheers
 
hs4570 said:
I'll take this one..

I may be mistaken... but I don't believe any one is questioning your time.. work and effort in achieving the accuracy you have found with your bench-guns. But.. no one is discussing Bench rest groups.

Most people don't want to spend years trying to find what you have achieved because most are just shooting cast in their hunting rifles and good Hunting/Target accuracy is what they want...this can be achieved useing your methods and other ways.. includeing Teflon Tape.

If we had a benchrest/cast bullet section on this forum no doubt Teflon tape would not enter the equation. You may want to suggest/discuss this and they may set one up for you.

Cheers
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Your points, in addition to being well made, have been put forth with understanding, and diplomacy. Good shooting and look forward to seeing you at the range.:)
 
Benchrest testing is the best way to obtain accuracy and most gains in accuracy can be attributed to methods found during benchrest testing, both in cast bullets and jacketed. You take alot of the variables out of testing and narrow it right down to, in this case,the bullet. By not testing with as many known variables covered as possible you open yourself up to all kinds of claims of VOODOO results.....as in this case!!!
 
Hey Ben.........

I have seen the results of HS4570's teflon taping of cast bullets,the accuracy is very good and the barrel is always super clean with no leading.
I had never seen teflon taping done before,but I was at least open to the idea to see the results for myself.
Teflon taping is the new paper patch as far as I'm concerned,the older paper version was used to keep the bore clean and teflon does the same job.
Accuracy was never the question, but rather the method.
You're always flapping about benchrest this and benchrest that while missing the whole point.........it works........Ben's blessing not needed.
 
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