The AR-15 still rules

Rich LPS said:
TDC,

I apologise for assuming that you do not carry a firearm for a living but I assume that I am right in saying so. As I state again, there are advantages to having a weapon system that can be put on safe regardless of it's bolt / sear / hammer condition.

Beltfed has pointed out one of the reasons why it can be of an advantage. You may not have the experience to know some of the other reasons, but that's OK you probably don't carry guns for a living. I'm not going to bore others here in more details.

Your posts regarding the "retard cops / badges ect." is a little over the top. As I said before some of us who carry guns for a living get a little tired of armchair types giving us tips on tactics, guns, finger's on triggers, ect. when they could not even come close to passing the selections to get in the front doors of our units. I'm sure you will keep posting about contradictions and how much you know ect. but you and I live in different worlds. Your's is probably safer and that's a good thing. I'll try to keep on making it safer.

Rich
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You're right, I don't carry a firearm for a living. Then again I don't have to get paid to enjoy shooting like some who wear a badge. I'm not labeling all cops as one type or the other. There's no doubt there are bad cops, lazy cops, stupid cops, as well as the smart cops, switched on cops, and the very proficient at the job type cops.

With the information provided regarding the incident in question. The answer is operator error. Which means the officer f*cked up. For someone who carries for a living and as you indicate is out on the street to keep me safe, I'm a little concerned with some individuals ability to operate their equipment. I don't want to rag on LE, its a ####ty job dealing with the scum of the earth everyday. However, the frequency of which events like this occur is less than rare. There's probably a half dozen threads on this forum alone regarding officers who've had ND's. Officers who've discharged their pistol at home, TAC/SWAT members shooting their partners etc etc.(most cases its again operator error.)

I'm confident the number of non LE citizens who own firearms far outweighs the number of LE citizens who carry for a living. Just looking at numbers and the law of averages, you'd think there would be more incidents with citizens than officers. Maybe they're not making the news, but these days the media is eager to smear anyone and anything involving firearms.

The safety/selector debate is a training issue. If you don't use it, it doesn't matter what conditions the selector will function in. Failing to operate your equipment properly is the responsibility of the operator, not the equipment manufacturer.

TDC
 
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I think that the only reason you hear about cops and not about the Joe blow in his basement... is that everytime a ND occurs there's 'supposed' to be an investigation that makes its way to the press... where as if Joe blow does it he doesnt want to advertise a ND and keeps it hush hush.

*complacency kills* :D

Luke
 
TDC said:
The fact the AR platform is incapable of the safe position with the hammer in the down/fired position is irrelevant.
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To you perhaps, however there are alot of people who think it is very relevant, and some firearm designs have taken this into consideration.
 
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TDC,

The point Beltfed is trying to make is that there are other reasons. You just don't have enough experience to realize them. No we're not going to point them out to you because someone of your vast knowledge and experience shouldn't have to have it laid out to them. It's ok, you're just a civilian who plays with guns, you don't use them in real life and death situations. It's like the guy who's the best shot with a sniper rifle at the range, quite different than the sniper making a shot when someone's life is on the line. As much as you want to sound like the Tactical / SWAT / Commando expert on the internet you're not.

Back on topic, some Tactical Operators find advantages to having a weapon that will go on safe no matter what condition it is in. If you disagree fine, you are entitled to your civilian opinion.

Out, Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC,

The point Beltfed is trying to make is that there are other reasons. You just don't have enough experience to realize them. No we're not going to point them out to you because someone of your vast knowledge and experience shouldn't have to have it laid out to them. It's ok, you're just a civilian who plays with guns, you don't use them in real life and death situations. It's like the guy who's the best shot with a sniper rifle at the range, quite different than the sniper making a shot when someone's life is on the line. As much as you want to sound like the Tactical / SWAT / Commando expert on the internet you're not.

Back on topic, some Tactical Operators find advantages to having a weapon that will go on safe no matter what condition it is in. If you disagree fine, you are entitled to your civilian opinion.

Out, Rich
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I never indicated I was a part of a SWAT team or other similar unit. I don't even play a member of one on T.V. I asked if those who "appear" to know more would share other valid reasons for such a safety. If you can't come up with a reason and back it up with some logic that's fine too. Don't indicate the existence of other reasons/situations for such a device and not back it up with fact. That would be posing. I won't call you a poser, as you haven't proven that you are. Indicating there are other reasons that a "simple civilian" wouldn't or couldn't know and not backing up such claims could win you the title.


In all honesty I would like to know. Maybe I'm missing something huge here or maybe its something I already do and/or agree with. Either way I'd like to further my knowledge of what is or isn't being done and why. Disagreeing as you pointed out is up to the individual. If everyone agreed the world would be pretty boring. I'll also add that using the excuse "its a trade secret and I can't discuss it." Is crap. I'm not asking for sensitive information, just an insight into why this attribute is deemed desirable in the tactical(or not) environment.


TDC
 
TDC said:
I'm all ears if there are other reasons for a selector to perform as requested. Please, explain why its important.

TDC
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The only one's I know of are:

A) As pointed out and discussed, it is readily identified as being 'on safe'. An AR with it's hammer down on an empty chamber is technically safe too - just not readily identified as such.

B) Possible ease of training and use - especially if you have a secondary weapon that functions in a similar fashion.

C) (a bit of a stretch, but maybe...) perception & liability concerns from a civilian purchasing and issueing authority.
 
beltfed said:
The only one's I know of are:

A) As pointed out and discussed, it is readily identified as being 'on safe'. An AR with it's hammer down on an empty chamber is technically safe too - just not readily identified as such.

B) Possible ease of training and use - especially if you have a secondary weapon that functions in a similar fashion.

C) (a bit of a stretch, but maybe...) perception & liability concerns from a civilian purchasing and issueing authority.
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Here's how I see it. A) is a valid point. Although not indicating a safe position with an AR indicates you haven't cleared and or cycled the rifle. Worst case, you dropped the hammer on an empty chamber(or bad round) and failed to execute an immediate action drill.

B) While referencing your immediate action drill, I can't see a need for similarity of system types. The ability to select safe with the hammer down(and doing so) tells me the operator has no idea what condition their rifle is in.

C) In this day and age, I can definitely see where this benefit comes from. Especially with LE agencies. I'm sure there are several other examples of ill informed policy being adopted thanks to nervous lawyers and the like.

TDC
 
Beltfed,

A) - if you cycle and safe even with an empty chamber - there is nothing wrong with that. During an IA drill or transition - of it does not go on safe - no worries. Everywhere I have trained - the concept with an M4 while transitioning is attempt to place the safety on, and if it does not go -- dont worry and continue to you pistol.

B) Roger that - but everyone who truly knows what they are doing carries a 1911 for a pistol so its the same :)
Okay that above was tongue in cheek, I have carried a BHP, a Sig, a Glock and a 1911 for duty - and I am still fully conversant with the M4. maybe a bigger issue for people that dont get a lot of hours and rounds in training with a long gun however.

C) No doubt about it.

All in all - if end users wanted that feature in an AR - it could be added, and in the same way that Novak and a few others have made 1911's than can do that, and be cycled with the safety on, it has pro's to it.


I fully beleive that anyone operating a M16FOW should run it in on safe no matter what the load state. Yes I think the CF is WRONG.
This is based on 20 years with that platform in many different places.

I however am not concerned with the way the safety is layed out -- and neither am I about the 1911.

proper training, mindset, and using your number weapon (the brain) is key above all else.
 
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