The Austrian M1895 Stutzen

Drachenblut

Drachenblut

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Hello,

I have done extensive reading into this carbine, but one detail escapes me... It mentions in my sources that MANY of the M1895 Stutzens were converted from 8X50R to 8X56R in the 1930's. However, does this include all of them? The only rifles I have seemed to see that are in the original 8X50R are AOI marked Repairation carbines (like mine) and some rare unspeakable uncommon Serbian and Romanian Stutzens that were untouched. I am curious if anyone has a non Italian Repairation stutzen in the original 8X50R? Do post pictures, and as a side note, I am looking to increase my collection of these particular "original" stutzens ;)

Cheers,
Drachenblut
 
Hi again, Drachenblut!

Yes, I have one here but it's not for sale. Steyr manufacture with what appear to be 1917 civilian proofmarks (although I certainly could be wrong), and it's in the original 8x50R, which is how I discoverdd how to fake the cartridge without having the right equipment.

I do also have a Bulgarian 1903, but it has been converted to 8x56R30M. Also, it is a long Rifle.

When you're through this way, you can stare at the shorty and I'll get a box of rounds loaded up so we can go out to Wolverine and try it out. Nice little thing, and its new bayonet just arrived from the GREAT guys at Tradex (free ad here). Right now, it is standing in the corner, wearing its new bayonet and quietly wagging its sights.

I have a houseful of people right now, but I'll try to get a couple of photos later on and post them. It IS rather a sweetie.

Have fun!
 
i would think that any that were in the austrian, hungarian, or bulgarian inventory got converted to 8x56R. don't know how thorough the yugo's were with converting to 8x57.
 
So it would seem. Just curious why they switched to such an odd caliber of bullet, they went from a good, universal .323 to .328 or something absurd like that which apparently you cannot find in Canada, to my knowledge. Correct me if I am wrong. I wouldn't mind a Yugo M95 Stutzen in 8X57, but I understand the extractors on those were very prone to breakage and cannot be replaced (they were modified 8X50 and 8X56R extractors).
All in all, I would be happier to stick with the original 8X50R and work with it. It's also a bit of a rarity factor.
 
i can't speak of their reasons, but i doubt that canadians in 2010 factored into them at all.
 
If you check a lot of the guns very carefully, you will find that they DIDN'T rebarrel them at all.

The original barrel was line-bored and reamed, then the new rifling was put in. This saved the cost of a barrel-blank and much of the original barrel work, not to mention fitting.

Remember, before the Great War, the KuK Austro-Hungarian Empire was a big country, old and rich. Following the war, Austria and Hungary both were small countries, worn out by the War and both were quite poor by European standards. Check the records: the Imperial Austro-Hungarian Armed Forces took better than 90% total casualties (counting KIA, DoW, WIA, Missing and so forth), the highest of any military formation engaged in the struggle. Think of what something like that does to a country.

But the original barrels were reworked, which is why all the serial numbers are in the same stamps and all line up correctly.
 
Drachenblut said:
So it would seem. Just curious why they switched to such an odd caliber of bullet, they went from a good, universal .323 to .328 or something absurd like that which apparently you cannot find in Canada, to my knowledge.
Click to expand...

They switched to the 329 in an attempt to get a Spitzer design that could feed through rifles and machine guns based on the 8X50R, without having to do much in the way of modifications to the action, magazine and feed mechanisms. However by going to a 323 spitzer it was found its length used up too much of the powder capacity, and wanting not only a spitzer, but higher performance, that was not a straight forward option, so they modified the 50R casing by moving the shoulder and neck up as much as reasonable. During testing they were unhappy with the 323 spitzer designs, and in order to keep better gas seal with the spitzer design, and attain better accuracy they upped the diameter to the 329. It was a case where to change one thing, meant chaning other things to get the desired results.
They began conversions in 1930, but they hadn't completed the conversions by the time of the Anschluss in 1938 (hard to believe, but true). Bare in mind, these conversions not only covered the military, but other branches of government as well, meaning alot of guns had to be converted.


Technically the 329 isnt all that hard to find, and usually hasnt been, though it has meant going outside of say, your normal gunshop. 329s have been available from a variety of makers, particularly in Europe, but most had been made for the 318WR, it was really only in the 80s that other weights started to show up, including from some small European makers, and one or two custom sources in the US.
 
They also had that relatively-fast rifling in the original rifles to contend with. Rifles originally were made for a 244-grain slug. They could just have used a 154-grain spitzer, as did the Chermans, but it never would have stabilised properly.

So they made up the 208-grain boat-tail spitzer as a substitute for the bullet they couldn't use.... and it worked. Recoil is bloody blue murder, mind you, but it worked.

8x56R30M is based on the old 8x50R, stretched out a little, but they also fattened the case just enough that when the rifles were rechambered, the reamer would just touch up the existing chamber, where it might have had a bit of corrosion or rust: just polished it up like brand-new. But this little extra bit of fat is why, if you have an original 8x50R, you will have a LOT of trouble converting 8x56R30M brass for it. Better to stick with the 7.62x54R for conversions; it might be a little tad loose, but that's a lot better than a little bit tight, especially if you don't have full forming dies and a lathe in your back pocket.

And, yes, .318 Westley-Richards used a .330" slug. I have a few Bulgarian rounds here with bullets as thick as that, and it was issue ammo.... so it's allright. Just hard to find, that's all, but that's what the internet is for.

Oh, it's fun!
 
Thank you again for the piles of information. I happen to have a full set of full form dies and am getting a case trimming device to modify the 8X56R into the proper length. A little lube and it should work, I hope. I have been told that using 7.62X54R is really not good as the base diameter and thickness will not work in Carbines and Stutzens, they tend to be quite finnicky. If worst comes to it, I can always go on the hunt for 8X50R cases someplace. All the same, I would love to get my hands on the heaviest bullets I can get for this, up to 244. Are there any sources?
 
Drachenblut said:
I would love to get my hands on the heaviest bullets I can get for this, up to 244. Are there any sources?
Click to expand...

You looking for 56R or 50R bullets? You wont find a 329 in a 244gr.

For 329, an the closest stuff is ;
h ttp://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=37&catid=427&step=2
Also check out the 100gr pistol bullet in 330

for heavier stuff, h ttp://www.huntingtons.com/ they still carry some heavier 318WR bullets.

For oddball weights, you would really need to look for some of the small European makers.
 
Drachenblut, I have been on the flipping internet half the night, mostly over this!

Here is the 8mm (.323") bullet line-up as of last night:
HORNADY:
No. 3232..... 150
3235..... 170
3236..... 195

SPEER:
No. 2277..... 150
2283..... 170
2285..... 200

SIERRA:
No. 2400..... 150
2410..... 175
2415..... 200 Match
2420...... 220

So you have everything there except those silly little 123s but, as you don't have a Sturmgewehr, I didn't bother with them. What you dio have is a pretty good line-up from 150 through to 220, which is not all that far from your desired 244 and certainly should stabilise properly in the rifling in your Stutzer. After all, same pitch will stabilise the 208: we know that much. So it certainly should work okay with the 220.

I think for anything else you're going to have to go to a custom bullet-maker.... and expect to pay BIG bucks. These ones you can buy, right across the counter, right now. I put in the factory part numbers on all of these just in case some shop tells you that there an't no sutch animule; you can just quote the part number to them and have them order that way.

BTW, my Stutzer works just fine with converted 7.62x54R brass. Try it when you're out here. Cheaper than new 8x56R30M and if you have a Noisy Maggot, you get double the fun for the one price: bang it off through the Moisin-Nagant, pick it up and reload for the Stutzer. Much more fun that buying the brass fresh and loading it!

Hope this helps a bit.
 
Hello Smellie,
Thanks! That information is very helpful to me, as now I can look to see about getting 220 grain rounds. I happen to have 197 grain bullets here and need loading data for them for the 8X50R, can someone please help me out? I'm new to reloading and like to play things very safe.
I may do the 7.62X54R conversion, we'll see. For now I have enough 8X56R brass trimmed down to 8X50 and resized so I can use that. Oddly, in the back of my mind, I seem to recall an old African gun that used a .321 diameter bullet that was 250 grains. Maybe I'm getting it wrong, I seem to remember it being a popular Boer cartridge.
Once again, thanks!
 
Drachenblut said:
I'm looking for 50R bullets. .323 i'm looking for a .244 in .323. I may have to get a guy to cast them up and drop my powder charge a couple grains.
Click to expand...

Ahhhhhhhhhh zo. I don't know of anyone doing 244s, but Woodliegh still does a 250gr 323, and a few European makers do 220gr 323.
 
Could you provide info for the 250 from Woodleigh, contact information as well please? I would love to use that, it's a little heavier but if I could find or make a load for that in my 8X50R case, it would be great. Do you gents suggest a slow, medium or fast burning powder? What powders specifically? What kind of loads? I'm looking for someone to help me out on this one, I am not qualified to make an out of the blue load.
 
For oddball stuff in the US try Huntingtons, they carry woodleigh:
h ttp://www.huntingtons.com/


In Germany Reimer Johannsen is a good spot, its been a few years since I bought anything from them, but you can fire them an email to see if they will still ship bullets (which I think they do)
h ttp://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog/katalog.php?navid=1

If you click on the link that says "Gesamtkatalog (ca. 25 MB)" you get thier reloading catalogue as a download, bullets are about 4/5ths through, they carry just about every big maker, and a few european ones.
 
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