The Evil Black Talon vs good Mr Kevlar

Suputin

Suputin

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Someone recently asked if I had tried a 9mm Black Talon against a kevlar vest. While this issue had been debunked long ago, it is such a prevalent legend that I thought it was worth trying.

As I had expected, the 9mm 147gr Black Talon (teflon coated and everything) did not penetrate the kevlar vest. In fact it was stopped by the very first layer.

Vest%20Black%20Talon.JPG
 
Winchester Black Talon Revisited

There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:

Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.

We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.

Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.

The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.
 
If you are shooting at things for fun, I'd like to see how that CZ 7.62x25mm ammo performs


Suputin said:
Someone recently asked if I had tried a 9mm Black Talon against a kevlar vest. While this issue had been debunked long ago, it is such a prevalent legend that I thought it was worth trying.

As I had expected, the 9mm 147gr Black Talon (teflon coated and everything) did not penetrate the kevlar vest. In fact it was stopped by the very first layer.
Click to expand...
 
The Winchester 127gr SXT+P+ makes short work of many level II kevlar vests, strictly based on velocity it offers greater penetration in vests.

gadget
 
well here is a 124g JHP montanna gold at 25 meters vrs 1 inch thick bullet resistance glass

9mm.jpg



fired out of a glock 17 did NOT go through went about 1/4 - 1/2 way through

very neat to see the bullet opened right up inside the glass!
 
gadget said:
The Winchester 127gr SXT+P+ makes short work of many level II kevlar vests, strictly based on velocity it offers greater penetration in vests.

gadget
Click to expand...

Have you ever shot this ammo? I have, hears the results:

Win RangerT 127+P+ 1247fps, spread 48fps, energy 439fpe, SD 14.1

compare with:
Speer 124gr +P GDHP 1246fps, spread 50fps, energy 428fpe, SD 13.3
Remington 147gr. Golden Saber BJHP 981fps, spread 59m energy 314fpe, SD 16.2

It chronographs about the same as Speer 124gr.+P and both slugs will not penetrate kevlar. Increased velocity results in shallower penetration with today's JHP bullets. The 147gr. bullets are the deepest penetrating bullets in the 9mm JHP's and they are running less than 990fps but use momentium to penetrate deeper.
 
The Winchester 127gr SXT+P+ makes short work of many level II kevlar vests, strictly based on velocity it offers greater penetration in vests.
Click to expand...
You saying this based on first hand knowledge or just repeating what you "heard" somewhere else? It kind of sounds like an "internet fact" to me, which ultimately means it is BS. The words, "many level II kevlar vests" make me a bit suspicious of the source of this info. Cause who has the funds or time to actually test a bunch of different vests?

I'm not a big believer in the, "well everybody knows...." line of scientific inquiry. I want to see it for myself or get the information first hand from a reliable source.

If you have any of this ammo, send me a couple of rounds and I'll actually try them on a Level 2 vest so we can all know for sure. Otherwise I am disinclined to believe that a 127gr JHP will penetrate a level 2 kevlar vest. My opinion, of course, being based on what I have seen actually penetrate a vest and what gets stopped.

In my experience, no JHP has penetrated more than 1 or 2 layers of the 21 layers in a level 2 vest. So this 127gr SXT would have to be a VERY special performer to do what you claim.
 
Suputin,

Great work you do on these balistic tests..........I do agree with your conclusions.

I made a series of tests last year........on a professionnal basis
( which cant be discussed here for obvious reasons !! ). Calibers pitted against a Level II vests ranged from 9mm to 44 Mag......Very few rounds penetrated. JHP ammo did not......whatever the brand, caliber or weight.

On the ``Cop killer bullet`` issue........This ``marketing`` label was affixed to KTW Armor Piercing ammo produced in the late 70s........This ammo, along with similar stuff like THV ( from France ) is Prohibited in Canada as it should be.....( I did, back then, penetration tests with KTW ammo......) For the record, no Cop was ever shot with it as it was ``police distributed`` only........



MARK
 
Suputin,
Assuming you are shooting the 9mm out of a hand gun (4-5" barrel)
Seeing any noticeable difference out of sub guns?

No one has donated .40 for the XD test as yet:( , and all I have on hand is some Winchester stuff.
 
the only HP handgun ammo I have seen reliably punch through vest after vest is my .50 AE 325 JHP stuff. It's freakin nasty, big hole in, bigger hole out. 9mm, .40, .45 no penetration at all. Just a nasty freakin bruise and burn if you were wearing the vest.
 
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Suputin said:
You saying this based on first hand knowledge or just repeating what you "heard" somewhere else? It kind of sounds like an "internet fact" to me, which ultimately means it is BS. The words, "many level II kevlar vests" make me a bit suspicious of the source of this info. Cause who has the funds or time to actually test a bunch of different vests?

I'm not a big believer in the, "well everybody knows...." line of scientific inquiry. I want to see it for myself or get the information first hand from a reliable source.

If you have any of this ammo, send me a couple of rounds and I'll actually try them on a Level 2 vest so we can all know for sure. Otherwise I am disinclined to believe that a 127gr JHP will penetrate a level 2 kevlar vest. My opinion, of course, being based on what I have seen actually penetrate a vest and what gets stopped.

In my experience, no JHP has penetrated more than 1 or 2 layers of the 21 layers in a level 2 vest. So this 127gr SXT would have to be a VERY special performer to do what you claim.
Click to expand...


The Winchester 127gr+P+ was test fired into level II vest following the NIJ protocol, and you are correct that under normal circumstances most HP ammo is easily defeated, this came as a surprise for me also when the vest was defeated, also remember that only specific rounds are tested for the NIJ protocol, and as such many other rounds actually defeat these vests, case and point in the early 90's the OPP bought Hirtenberger 100gr JSP ammo for use and discountinued it's use when they found out it defeated the standard OPC vest that is issue in the province of Ontario, also for general knowledge most frangible 9mm ammunition will readily defeat ballistic vest, ask your local armor rep if they have ever tested the Winchester 127gr+P+ - my guess they will say no and see no reason to do such testing, when Second Chance still had credibility they marketed a vest that defeated the Winchester round and sold it as being the only one on the market at the time.

gadget
 
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kidvett said:
Suputin,

Great work you do on these balistic tests..........I do agree with your conclusions.

I made a series of tests last year........on a professionnal basis
( which cant be discussed here for obvious reasons !! ). Calibers pitted against a Level II vests ranged from 9mm to 44 Mag......Very few rounds penetrated. JHP ammo did not......whatever the brand, caliber or weight.

On the ``Cop killer bullet`` issue........This ``marketing`` label was affixed to KTW Armor Piercing ammo produced in the late 70s........This ammo, along with similar stuff like THV ( from France ) is Prohibited in Canada as it should be.....( I did, back then, penetration tests with KTW ammo......) For the record, no Cop was ever shot with it as it was ``police distributed`` only........



MARK
Click to expand...
BTW the owner of ktw was shot to death.
bbb
 
The Winchester 127gr+P+ was test fired into level II vest following the NIJ protocol,
Click to expand...
Would you care to enlighten us as to what exactly constitutes the National Institute of Justice test protocol for bullet resistant vests?

and you are correct that under normal circumstances most HP ammo is easily defeated, this came as a surprise for me also when the vest was defeated, also remember that only specific rounds are tested for the NIJ protocol, and as such many other rounds actually defeat these vests,
Click to expand...
Again you are using a large generalization. In my personal experience very few rounds will penetrate a Level 2 vest and those that do are seriously exotic with the exception being the IVI 115gr Ball round. If "many" rounds will defeat the vest, what dam good is it?

also for general knowledge most frangible 9mm ammunition will readily defeat ballistic vest,
Click to expand...
Not in my experience. Only two frangible rounds penetrated the vest, neither of which are available in Canada.

Again, I am not all that interested in the "everyone knows" type of information, only specific information that can be backed up with real data.
 
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