The next step?

Candocad

Candocad

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I have been working on precision rifle marksmanship for about 6 years now, and I have two main centre fire rifles that I use in calibre .308 and 30.06 which I reload for.

Having got to the end of either my ability or the equipment at about 800 metres, and I now want to take the next step of going to 1Km or even slightly beyond.......

I logically (or naively) thought that bigger was better, and here I go via 300 Win Mag! I liked the idea of the same 'family' of bullets but I have read about a number of other calibre's that are consistently winning PR competitions????

So I have got to the stage of considering a 6.5 Creedmore, over 300WM on the basis of economy / lower recoil and flatter trajectory. (I am not up for 50BMG or 338 Lapua on $ / recoil reasons).

Your thoughts please? particularly from owners/ users of both calibre's.

Thanks.

Candocad.
 
Due to the brass available for 6.5 creedmore I wouldn't get a rifle chambered in it. Consider 260rem, 6.5x55 or 6.5-284.

Also 6.5 creedmore doesn't have flatter trajectory then 300WM.



6MT - vids or it didn't happen.
 
I agree with your original choice, 300wm. When I had a rifle in it she was quite the rifle. Yes, there is a fair increase in recoil, but its a 1.2k round easy. Also it will be the best thing to get into the bigger rounds later on.

Edit: Also, 338lm is not that expensive as long as you are a reloader. You can get a rifle for about 2K in EE.
 
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I've always been interested in why someone would want to push out further??? If your consistantly hitting at 800. why not shrink your target? I find myself playing with my 17hmr at 300meters over any other rifle just because of the annoyance of shooting out to 1km. The only time i find it easier is when I bring out a buddy to spot for me and a 4x4 to get around easier.

If you buy a 300win mag. and it pushes out to 1200metres easily. Then isn't that the equivalent of shooting your 308 at a shooter range? Does it require more skill to shoot further with a higher powered rifle? Or is it just for the sake of being able to shoot further???

This is more of a question then a comment. Everyone has their reasons for what they want to do with their rifle. I am just curious :)
 
The further you go, the more variables involved, the more skill and practise that is required.

My $0.02(which is worth nothing in Alberta's economy right now), is to keep your 30-06. It has better peformance than you might think. Better performance than the 308, much better barrel life than the 300win. Stuff some 200smk or 208 amax into that 30-06 and you would be amazed at the performance.
Using R-22 and Lapua brass you can get 2750-2800fps from the 208amax in the 30-06. At my altitude of 4000' this load stays supersonic to about 1500yards.

Just a thought.
 
What type of rifle do you have now?

What is the twist in either rifle?

Why do you say you have maxed out the performance?

Accuracy goal or type of target?

You may find that a simple change of bullet will get you all the distance you want.... There are a whole bunch of us slinging lead at 1000yds/900m with 308's and hitting a 5" circle is the goal.

Now if you have an accuracy goal, then the factory pipes may indeed have reached their end... or they may simply be worn out.

But if shooting LR is the goal, the 30cal mid case are some of the easiest to set up to launch way out there.

Jerry
 
The 308 is a stock Tikka T3 Varminter in stainless. Scope is a Falcon 4-16 x 50mm, a budget scope. Barrel is good, and works really well with most ammo up to 500-600 metres. Then it seems to reach a barrier of not being consistent on target, with 1 in 5 or more hitting the gong.

The 30.06 is a K98 action (fair to good) with a Kreiger #18 light varmint contour in SS 1: 10 twist with a Timney trigger and an Optima 4-16 x 50 mm scope, again a budget unit, all housed in a synthetic polymer stock. This is rifle is ammo fussy, and prefers 165/168 gr bullets. It is still relatively new with less than 100 rounds shot to date. It is not as accurate as the Tikka, and again is fair - good up to 500 metres. Again it seems then to open up and be a 1 in 5 or 8 shots on the gong.

I acknowledge that the glass could be a limiting factor, as could my level of skill (or lack thereof) but the 600+ metre barrier does appear to exist for me.

The gong is an 8" dia. outer, with a 3" dia. inner, with a lower 12" square steel plate. (Range in on the plate, move up to the gong, dream of consistently hitting the inner gong!)

My goal is 5 out of 5 on the 8" gong at 800 metres in perfect conditions for 70 - 80% of the time. Too ambitious?

Candocad.
 
Candocad said:
The 308 is a stock Tikka T3 Varminter in stainless. Scope is a Falcon 4-16 x 50mm

I acknowledge that the glass could be a limiting factor, as could my level of skill (or lack thereof) but the 600+ metre barrier does appear to exist for me.

.
Click to expand...

Sounds strange. The first thing I would suspect is the projectile. What bullets are you using? Can you give us some details on bullets, powder, load ect.
 
Candocad said:
The 308 is a stock Tikka T3 Varminter in stainless. Scope is a Falcon 4-16 x 50mm, a budget scope. Barrel is good, and works really well with most ammo up to 500-600 metres. Then it seems to reach a barrier of not being consistent on target, with 1 in 5 or more hitting the gong.

The 30.06 is a K98 action (fair to good) with a Kreiger #18 light varmint contour in SS 1: 10 twist with a Timney trigger and an Optima 4-16 x 50 mm scope, again a budget unit, all housed in a synthetic polymer stock. This is rifle is ammo fussy, and prefers 165/168 gr bullets. It is still relatively new with less than 100 rounds shot to date. It is not as accurate as the Tikka, and again is fair - good up to 500 metres. Again it seems then to open up and be a 1 in 5 or 8 shots on the gong.

I acknowledge that the glass could be a limiting factor, as could my level of skill (or lack thereof) but the 600+ metre barrier does appear to exist for me.

The gong is an 8" dia. outer, with a 3" dia. inner, with a lower 12" square steel plate. (Range in on the plate, move up to the gong, dream of consistently hitting the inner gong!)

My goal is 5 out of 5 on the 8" gong at 800 metres in perfect conditions for 70 - 80% of the time. Too ambitious?

Candocad.
Click to expand...

Your long term goal is very reasonable... very similar to what F class shooters are trying to do.

To reach that goal, you will need to start reloading. My suspicion is that you are not reaching the limits of your rifle BUT the limits of the ammo. Most factory ammo is simply are not made to the standards you need for LR accuracy.

Your groups size has exceeded the target size so now you are simply spraying and praying. With better handloads and bullets, that TIKKA will shoot sub MOA to 1000yds. See if the twist rate is listed on the barrel or on their website. It will likely be a 10 twist.

Now you just insert an appropriate quality match bullet and away you go. There are LOTS of such bullets from all manf so options are plentiful.

If you need help with setting up for reloading, just PM or email. From there, your hit rate will skyrocket simply because the bullet will actually go where you are expecting.

And then you can up that goal to hits when it is Windy.... that is some fun...

Jerry

PS, if the budget allows, consider better optics so you can see better and know the mechanicals are not going to let you down
 
Yes, most of the long distance shooting has been with a variety of factory ammo and I quickly noticed the correlation between price and accuracy, with a few exceptions. I have a reloading set up, and I shall put some work into that end of the business later this year.

On the question of 6.5 Creedmore, I see that there is very little brass traded or for sale, which is really a limiting factor (and that it does not shoot flatter than a 300WM).

So why the 'popularity' of the caliber, I remember thinking about 6.5 Grendel when I was considering the Kreiger / Mauser built some years back, and discounted it as a fad. I see that the new Ruger PR is available in 6.5 Creedmore so is it only south of the border manufacturers that are pushing this?

Candocad.
 
blueoval56 said:
The further you go, the more variables involved, the more skill and practise that is required.
Click to expand...

This isn't true if your just upping the calibre of your rifle to achieve these further distances. Using a .22 out to 300 and not being able to hit the target thereby buying a .223 to make it there does not require any more skill or practice.

I agree with the more previous statements that ammo is a huge factor in this scenario. And if you already have all of the reloading equipment. Then I'd stick with the calibres you have and challenge yourself more then simply moving to a 6.5 or so unless your simply trying to make it easier on yourself to make it out that distance.
 
I would stick with the 308 tikka and get a Sightron III 8-32 X56 for it. I really think the limiting factor in your current set up is the budget optics you have on it now.
 
Candocad said:
Yes, most of the long distance shooting has been with a variety of factory ammo and I quickly noticed the correlation between price and accuracy, with a few exceptions. I have a reloading set up, and I shall put some work into that end of the business later this year.

On the question of 6.5 Creedmore, I see that there is very little brass traded or for sale, which is really a limiting factor (and that it does not shoot flatter than a 300WM).

So why the 'popularity' of the caliber, I remember thinking about 6.5 Grendel when I was considering the Kreiger / Mauser built some years back, and discounted it as a fad. I see that the new Ruger PR is available in 6.5 Creedmore so is it only south of the border manufacturers that are pushing this?

Candocad.
Click to expand...

After 125yrs - yes, over a century, the US market has finally clued in that the 6.5 bullets make wonderful LR slugs and that lower recoil with high ballistics is alot of fun. The 260Rem died a slow painful death as did the other chamberings before. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the first chambering that has met with sales success, albeit far less then the articles and posts might suggest. Very very slowly, the US reloading industry and starting to support this chambering and we are now starting to see a range of stuff that isn't so hard to get or pricey.

When Lee starts to make die sets, you know the sales volume is pretty good.

Brass is still a very expensive component. Designed and sold as a Precision/target shooting rd, it immediately garners a premium for pricing. The bulk and inexpensive brass makers have stopped selling component stuff ... might be cheaper to buy factory ammo and just shoot it for the brass.

Maybe PRVI will offer it if sales volume hit large enough volume... that will drop the price of brass considerably.

Is the Creedmoor the end all? No. It is just the latest greatest that fits in a det mag WITH the bullet in the "right" place. The 260Rem and 6.5 Swede still offer far more options at less money BUT they don't fit in those little mags as easily. The 6.5 Grendel is simply too small to be of much use for LR precision shooting.

The 6.5X47L, although very accurate hasn't been played up in the US market due to smaller size and European origins.

The Creedmoor is a rehashed idea from the 70's and 80's BUT it is a US design and backed by the biggest US manf.

If you have a 308 in an accurate rifle, you can do and learn so much with some simple upgrades. The 6.5 will offer better LR ballistics in some instances BUT you still need to do all the steps to achieve this. Factory ammo is still factory ammo and frightfully expensive.

If you want to try something new, by all means. Having shot most of the options from 22 to 50, it is alot of fun to play.

But I would just start doing some proper reloading and mount better scope... that Tikka will put a very big smile on your face at 1km.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
After 125yrs - yes, over a century, the US market has finally clued in that the 6.5 bullets make wonderful LR slugs and that lower recoil with high ballistics is alot of fun. The 260Rem died a slow painful death as did the other chamberings before. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the first chambering that has met with sales success, albeit far less then the articles and posts might suggest. Very very slowly, the US reloading industry and starting to support this chambering and we are now starting to see a range of stuff that isn't so hard to get or pricey.

When Lee starts to make die sets, you know the sales volume is pretty good.

Brass is still a very expensive component. Designed and sold as a Precision/target shooting rd, it immediately garners a premium for pricing. The bulk and inexpensive brass makers have stopped selling component stuff ... might be cheaper to buy factory ammo and just shoot it for the brass.

Maybe PRVI will offer it if sales volume hit large enough volume... that will drop the price of brass considerably.

Is the Creedmoor the end all? No. It is just the latest greatest that fits in a det mag WITH the bullet in the "right" place. The 260Rem and 6.5 Swede still offer far more options at less money BUT they don't fit in those little mags as easily. The 6.5 Grendel is simply too small to be of much use for LR precision shooting.

The 6.5X47L, although very accurate hasn't been played up in the US market due to smaller size and European origins.

The Creedmoor is a rehashed idea from the 70's and 80's BUT it is a US design and backed by the biggest US manf.

If you have a 308 in an accurate rifle, you can do and learn so much with some simple upgrades. The 6.5 will offer better LR ballistics in some instances BUT you still need to do all the steps to achieve this. Factory ammo is still factory ammo and frightfully expensive.

If you want to try something new, by all means. Having shot most of the options from 22 to 50, it is alot of fun to play.

But I would just start doing some proper reloading and mount better scope... that Tikka will put a very big smile on your face at 1km.

Jerry
Click to expand...

What he said :)
 
Thank you all for your comments, much appreciated.

I think I shall stick to the two rifles I currently have and work on load development and treat myself to a better scope on the Tikka. If that all works out I should have at least one rifle I can rely on to be accurate at range.

Candocad.

PS: I checked out Lee's website, and yes they do a 4 die set for 6.5 Creedmoor!
 
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One other thing I would do to that Tikka, get a proper steel recoil lug and pillar/devcon bed it properly to the stock. You can look up Lumley Arms, they have all the recoil lugs and bedding kits you need, then jump on youtube and watch some videos on bedding the rifle. Screw up some courage and dive in, bedding is much easier than you might expect and makes a huge difference in consistency in your rifle. You might want to consider a muzzle brake for the rifle as well, I know you will hear all the tough guys say you don't need a brake for a 308, but the T3 Varmint is a reasonably light weight target rifle and shooting long strings can tire you out in a hurry and cause you to develop a flinch. Find a good smith and get a side/top discharge brake installed, total should be no more than about $300 parts and labour, and your away to the races.

I have a Tikka Tactical in 308 right now and it really likes the Hornady Match 155 Amax Palma Match ammo, it runs 0.6MOA in my rifle right out to 800 meters-which is the farthest I have taken it so far.
 
I agree with many of the aforementioned comments as to you giving up on manufactured ammo and go to reloading to get the potential out of the .308 you have although I am a huge 300 win mag fan and yes they will take you out well past the 1000 meter mark the .308 has earned its place in the spotlight rightfully so.
 
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