The original Creedmoor

gunlaker

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Nowadays when you hear the word Creedmoor it's often in reference to the 6.5mm Creedmoor cartridge, and I've heard that some call Palma shooting "Creedmoor Shooting".

I thought I'd post a little about the original Creedmoor shooting and the types of rifles we use nowadays. Maybe someone will find it interesting. The original Creedmoor range was on Long Island in NY state and was owned originally by a fellow whose last name was Creed. It was the site of the first American international long range rifle match in 1874 against the Irish, who were the dominant shooters in long range at the time.

Nowadays the NRA still holds Creedmoor matches, held at 800, 900, and 1000 yards and shot on the TR targets, but with single shot black powder rifles. The rifles are nearly the same, except modern rules allow the rifles to weigh up to 15 lbs, and have any safe trigger weight ( original matches used 10 lb rifles with 3lb triggers ).

These rifles are very different to shoot than modern precision rifles. Follow through is even more important as the bullet's barrel time is about the same as a .22 LR, but the recoil is way more stout. Most shooters are using 540gr bullets at about 1330 fps, so much like a shotgun slug but with a 0.5 BC. We generally go subsonic before 300 yards.

The projectiles are very wind sensitive. About 1.2 minutes per mph of wind at 1000 yards for a full value wind so a slight miscalculation can turn an X into a 6. Head/tail winds have probably 5x influence in the vertical when compared to a modern .308 projectile.

The rifles are supported by crossed sticks in the front, but must be supported by the shooters hand in the rear. No sand bags or grounding of the rear hand or rifle, so keeping steady is a skill for sure.

I recently shot at the 1000 yard World Championships at Ben Avery in Phoenix Arizona. A special match with 4 days of shooting where all targets are at 1000 yards. It sure was more fun than practicing in the rain here in BC :)

Unfortunately there is not a huge amount of Canadian interest in this stuff. I've never seen another Canadian at the BPTR matches I've been to, so I am generally "team Canada" :).

Here are my Creedmoor rifles. The top is an 1874 Sharps chambered in .45-100 with a 6x scope. This rifle shoots 540gr paper patched bullets with a 100gr charge of Swiss Fg. The second is an original 1878 Sharps Borchardt that was rebuilt in the 1990's. Although it's almost 140 years old it shot well enough to make high expert in Colorado last year. It's chambered in .45-90 and shoots a 535gr bullet at about 1330 fps. The bottom rifle is an 1885 highwall that shoots a 540gr paper patched bullet at about 1320 fps.


CreedmoorSmall.jpg




Chris.
 
I should also add that the 1878 Borchardt was the most advanced rifle of it's time. In those days rifles had exposed hammers and really slow lock times. The 1878 Sharps utilized a striker system and was so strange to the people at the time that is was a failure commercially for the sporting market.

The last time one of these rifles won a long range match against a modern smokeless rifle was in 1900 at Sea Girt.

Another fun fact. When long range shooting went out of vogue the range was shut down. Today the Creedmoor range is a mental institution.

Chris.
 
Very nice rifles!
The classic Creedmore shoots are interesting reading.
Any trouble getting your rifles down to the states to attend the shoots?
 
I have one of the Creedmoor style rifles. Mine is a Don Brown custom.in 45 cal. I shoot it paper patched over 100 grains of Goex cartridge and a 535 swadged projectile. Rifle is one that has done well at Bisley in the hands of one of our military members. My age and the recoil have slowed me down from using it much anymore. It has one of the finest triggers I have ever used.
 
It's pretty easy to get to the matches. You just need a form 6NIA and a match invite for when you get to the border. Usually I get sent inside while they verify serial numbers, but last time they just told me to have a nice day. Took about 60 seconds to look over the paperwork!

Chris.
 
I have one of the Creedmoor style rifles. Mine is a Don Brown custom.in 45 cal. I shoot it paper patched over 100 grains of Goex cartridge and a 535 swadged projectile. Rifle is one that has done well at Bisley in the hands of one of our military members. My age and the recoil have slowed me down from using it much anymore. It has one of the finest triggers I have ever used.

We actually had one guy with a muzzle loader in Phoenix. He shot very well, and pair fired with someone else so he could keep up with the time constraints.

Next year there is some sort of world muzzleloader match that will run right into the tail end of our match. It'll be interesting to compare the scores.

Chris.
 
Here is a shot plot to show how well this ancient technology works at 1000 yards. This was my best target. The last shot was not plotted but was an 8. The master class shooters can do it a bit better. I'm only in the expert class as of yet.

ShotPlot-1000-small.jpg


This year's Phoenix match winner was Dave Gullo, considered by most to be the best long range shooter in our game. You can see him shooting at 1100+ yards here:


Chris.
 
Have you ever met a shooter there named Mike Venturino? He use to write for Rifle and Handloader magazines and was an avid BPCR shooter.
 
I've never met Mr Venturino. He mostly shoots NRA BPCR silhouette though. I shoot only one of those matches per year and it's in Kamloops. For some reason a lot of the silhouette guys stay away from the black powder target rifle matches. I know that Mike Venturino has shot at least a few of the target rifle matches, but I don't think he has for a several years.

His book on Buffalo Rifles is really good. I've got a few of his others too.

Chris.
 
I believe the original Creedmoor matches were fired prone or supine; no crossed sticks. Regardless, that's some good shooting.
 
I believe the original Creedmoor matches were fired prone or supine; no crossed sticks. Regardless, that's some good shooting.

Yeah, that's totally correct. They allowed no artificial support so some pretty funky positions were devised. I've tried to get into some of them but don't think I could ever shoot well that way. They also had different time constraints as it seems that they had time to fully clean their rifles, whereas modern matches vary a bit, but most give you around 2 minutes per shot.

Chris.
 
So in that video, how do you possibly even see the "kill zone" gong on that buffalo with Irons at 1100 yards?! Just doesn't make sense to me lol

Yeah you would center the buffalo in the sight apertures. You wouldn't see that little plate, at least I couldn't.

It is quite easy to see the 44 inch bullseye at 1000 yards through apertures though. If the mirage gets high it's harder because the bullseye no longer appears perfectly round.

Chris.
 
Nice thread Chris, would love to join you down south for sure. Having fun with my 50-90s, especially the bull barrel. My gussied up 45-70 #1 Sporter hasn't been fired yet:redface: My local range is only 200 yards, love to find a place where I can stretch their legs:p
 
Thanks for posting this. It's very interesting. Is that something you can shoot at Vokes range in the 600 club? At least you'd get a little bit of semi long range practice.
Beautiful rifles and a great history lesson.
 
Several years ago I use to shoot cast bullet silhouette in Pennsylvania. (Good fun, very nice people) Our targets were 200-500 metres (offhand) but off in the distance there was a life size, steel buffalo silhouette at about 850 yards (?). After we finished, the BPCR guys were up so I asked one of them about the ballistics and time of flight. The gent told me (joking) that when he fired, he could go grab a coffee and listen for the "gong" when it struck the buffalo. Great pics and info. and neat that 200 year old technology can still be used successfully at 1000.
 
John, don't you guys have 600 in Campbell River?

A number of my American friends have told me that they used to hold black powder competitions at Volkes, but I don't know if we could drum up enough people to convince them to let us have a go.

At the moment I can shoot steel to 800m in Heffley Creek, but they don't have a full set of wind flags and these things are so sensitive to wind that you really want all of the flags.

The one cool thing about these bullets is that the time of flight is about 3.5 seconds to 1000 yards. In matches where you spot for yourself you can let go of the shot, follow through, and then roll over to the scope and watch the round go into the target. You can't see the bullet of course, but you can see the dust plume from the impact. This is useful in case you come off the target which is not super rare in this sport.

For anybody interested in these rifles we have a Silhouette and long range gong match coming up in June at Heffley Creek. The gongs are at 500m, 600m, 700m, and 800m. The 500m is shot off hand and the rest from a sitting position.

Chris.
 
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