The reality of the new Magnums!

[BIGREDD]

Remember this old ditty....
"Anything you can do, I can do better... I can do anything better than you!"

A lot of people think this is the mentality of the hunters shooting the new magnums. By new or super magnums I am talking about the Ultra Mags, the Lazzeroni's, the WSM's and the SAUM's among others. And the hunters using these new cartridges are bombarded with negative opinions about their choice of firearms and their skill level.
Well the truth is that most of these new magnums are faster, shoot flatter and hit harder than their non magnum or older counterparts and generally the hunters using them are experienced and practiced hunters and shooters.
This rediculous notion that inexperienced hunters are buying a Lazzeroni or Ultra Mag and sitting on a mountain top wounding game for miles in every direction is absurd!
I have been surrounded by hunting and shooting enthusiasts both professionally and recreationally for most of my life. And I can honestly say I cannot think of one hunter that has wounded an animal simply because he was shooting a magnum or super magnum rifle.
Oh yeah... I have heard all the horror stories and second hand crap that perpetuates this myth. I just choose to look at the facts and not the bulls**t.
Fact: First time and inexperienced hunters do not usually buy or use the newest or most powerful cartridges/rifles, anyone in firearms sales knows this to be true.
Fact: A younger hunter regardless of his choice of firearms is just as likely (possibly more likely!) to be practiced and familair with his firearm as someone older!
Fact: A flatter shooting harder hitting cartridge is less likely to wound game than a slower less powerful cartridge... common sense and physics are undeniable!
Fact: The individuals buying and using the new magnums are usually experienced hunters/shooters with an above average understanding of ballistics and the game they are hunting. All you have to do is poll the members here to understand this one.
Fact: It takes more skill not less to shoot accurately at long range and there is no difference in hunter skill level to aproach within 300 or 500 yards.

So what do you say "magnum haters"... do you feel threatened by the Super Magnums because they are new or different from your puny little non magnum?
Do you feel the urge to criticize others because their rifle will hit harder at 300 yards than yours does at the muzzle?
There has to be some way for you to blame all of your percieved problems in the sport on those hunters using magnums.

ANYTHING YOU CAN DO, I CAN DO BETTER ...I CAN DO ANYTHING BETTER THAN YOU !

 

[7.62mm]

Personally, I feel that range time and trigger time have more of an impact on hunter success, than what cartridge the said hunter chooses. I will agree that the magnum cartridges do have benefits, such as the flatter shooting and harder hitting attributes you mentioned, but I also think that they do have some drawbacks as well. For the new shooter, just starting out in the sport, I don't think a big recoiling rifle would be a wise choice, because there is to much of a chance to develop bad habits to a proper shooting form, that will ultimately result in poor results while taking game.

I for one do not enjoy shooting heavy recoiling rifles, but I certainly won't put down a person if they choose and want to shoot these said rifles. Enjoy our sport however you want, but also put in the time to know your limitations, and your rifle of choice, by visiting the range on a regular basis.

7.62mm

 

[Doug]

Feeling frisky this morning, BIGREDD?

As you know, I just bought a Wby in .270 WSM to give it a whirl. A friend of mine (and my gun mentor for the last thirty years) has one in his gun room right now in a Winchester M70. One of the guys in his hunt camp used this rifle for the first time this year and shot a deer with it, taking out both shoulders and turning the front half of the deer into muck. He was using factory ammo of some stripe...........

So Ron is going to play around with loads to get something going slightly slower and with a less frangible bullet for his buddy to use for deer hunting. I guess this is the opposite side of that equation about faster and harder-hitting...........

Doug

 

[mdbuckle]

Great post Bigredd!! I agree with you.

 

[manitou210]

Magnums

Great post Bigredd!! I agree with you.

Very well done a good read

 

[Claybuster]

Fact: The individuals buying and using the new magnums are usually experienced hunters/shooters with an above average understanding of ballistics and the game they are hunting. All you have to do is poll the members here to understand this one.

I don't necessarily agree that you can reach that conclusion by polling the members. People here are nutz who take an interest in these things and probably not representative of the average.

Just a few weeks ago I was in a gun store and overheard a transaction where a man was buying a Browning A-Bolt in one of the short mags to go moose hunting. He bought ammo, and then he asked one of the store clerks to sight in the rifle at the attached indoor range (25 meter range).

I've hunted with well-heeled folks and frequently see them with Weatherbys. More than once I noted either a lack of shooting prowess or a flinch of epic proportions. FWIW, I think a lot of the anti-magnum sentiment has its origins with Weatherby. They promoted these rifles heavily when they first came out and guys bought them not knowing how tough they would be to shoot.

The guy who won't sight in his own rifle or the Weatherby owner who can't manage a magnum round are both dorks IMO and would probably be dorks regardless what cartridge they used.

I have nothing generically against magnums IF the people using them can do so to full effect. I'm not a great fan of heavy recoiling rifles and my own comfort zone exists with a round that I shoot effectively and know inside and out. That means practice and I'd rather give up a couple hundred feet per second than practice with a rifle that pounds the snot out of me. If a rifle exceeds my recoil tolerance I will shoot it less and all that extra power is of no value because I can't deliver it where it needs to be.

 

[BIGREDD]

Yup... I like to stir the pot Doug.
And my favorite all around hunting cartridge is the .270WSM... it is approximately 200 fps faster than a standard .270.
Real world... this adds about 100 yards killing range for most big game hunting and about 150 for varmints.
The added energy that the WSM configuration allows a .277 diameter 140-150 grain bonded bullet has put it solidly into the acceptable Elk/Moose category... no question.
I switched to the WSM because I felt it would help me with long range coyote hunting. I have the accuracy and energy to kill big dogs cleanly out well past 400 yards now! Optics are a huge part of any long range equation but if the gun ain't got it... the scope won't help!

 

[Andy]

Hail Mary idiots fill all categories from Buckshot to Weatherby - the choice of cartridge is unrelated.

Most anti-magnum types are (ironically) snobs themselves of the highest degree. They are guys who use 22 Centrefire, take only head shots, use inexpensive guns - you know the type.

I don't know why gun choices is such a big deal. Choose a gun that matches the shooter and the shooting situation. If it's "more powerful than needed", that's a lot better than not enough power.

 

[Caboose]

The ballistics of these new calibres certainly look appealing. I'm not a hater, but where will the .243WSSM-ABCD be in 25 years? I'd love an HBAR varminter in this calibre, but worry about being stuck with an expensive wildcat to reload.

 

[Pat Brennan]

I presume this thread is some tongue in cheek humour.
It's the same logic ( or lack thereof) that would suggest everyone that shoots any specific caliber is a good, or bad shot!
Many (present complany excluded people do not have the ability to take "advantage" of the bigger mags (ultramags,etc.) and the short mags don't offer any ballistic performance that hasn't been around for many years. (advertising hype excluded)
For the "average" hunter who takes his shots within a couple hundred yards, the thought of unleashing one of the ultramags on a deer, and believing you need that extra "power" is "incredible".
I'd make the point that most people would shoot more modest caliber rifles much better, and the most important thing in making a clean kill is proper bullet placement.
Asbestos suit on!

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Magnums

.... Well the truth is that most of these new magnums are faster, shoot flatter and hit harder than their non magnum or older counterparts ....

Science is indeed a wonderful thing. If it wasn't we'd still be running after critters with sharp sticks.

Fact: First time and inexperienced hunters do not usually buy or use the newest or most powerful cartridges/rifles, anyone in firearms sales knows this to be true.

Consumer caution shouldn't be confused with lack of knowledge. New hunters typically use someone else's second rifle, or a used one bought relying heavily on others' advice.

Fact: A younger hunter regardless of his choice of firearms is just as likely (possibly more likely!) to be practiced and familair with his firearm as someone older!

Yes and no. The lessons learnt are still fresh, and I know for a fact there seems to be less time to get to the range than even ten years ago.

Fact: A flatter shooting harder hitting cartridge is less likely to wound game than a slower less powerful cartridge... common sense and physics are undeniable!

I traded up from a 30-06 to 300 Win Mag because it has a deer-body-height trajectory out to as far as I am comfortable shooting. Hit them properly in the ribcage, and they go down.

Fact: The individuals buying and using the new magnums are usually experienced hunters/shooters with an above average understanding of ballistics and the game they are hunting. All you have to do is poll the members here to understand this one.

Maybe more guys who can afford them, and who have more field shooting experience.

Fact: It takes more skill not less to shoot accurately at long range and there is no difference in hunter skill level to aproach within 300 or 500 yards.

I have fired thousands of rounds at round paper targets with DCRA target rifles and service rifles. Field shooting is a completely different skillset. I missed lots of deer until I stopped trying to shoot less "accurately" and more "instinctively". Distance had nothing to do with it.

 

[martinbns]

I don;t think being Well healed menas anything in the magnum thing. When I didn't have as much money as I do today, I started out with a single shot H&R 20 guage and an old beat up 30-06 model 70 pushfeed, Now I prefer Sako (and a recent kimber) rifles and I shoot a nice JP Sauer 20 g SxS for birds. The fact that I can afford to shoot a nice rifle hsnothing to do with whether I can handle a calibre or not. that's a pretty big, typical blue collar analogy about the stupid rich guy.

 

[t-star]

i don't see any advantage posed by any of the new calibers- ive got a 223,308 , and 338 and unless i go to africa, that will do anything i need - to tell the truth , all i really need is the 308, ( possibly an 06) , but i got the other 2 because i wanted big bear capability and like a lot of the rest of us during the cold war, wanted ammo interchange ability with the current army jicstf

 

[BCWILL]

For the "average" hunter who takes his shots within a couple hundred yards, the thought of unleashing one of the ultramags on a deer, and believing you need that extra "power" is "incredible".
I'd make the point that most people would shoot more modest caliber rifles much better, and the most important thing in making a clean kill is proper bullet placement.

Well I for one Agree 100% with Pat

The vast Majority of Hunters are NOT Shooters. By this I mean they do not Reload, they do not spend every sunday at the range practising shots and load testing, range testing etc.

They go to the Local store and pick up thier yearly 20 round box of shells....go crack a couple rounds at a Hubcap or whatever they can find laying around.....
Usually after about 5-6 rounds they pronounce the Rifle to be "Bang on" and Happily stuff the remaining 14 rounds in the Glovebox for the rest of hunting season

Funny thing is these Non Shooter Hunters that make up the Majority also take the Majority of animals every year with the Cheapest ammo they can find at Walmart or Canadian tire usually in nonmagnum rounds like the ol 06, 270, 303 or what have you.

To Suggest that the Majority of Hunters Shooting Big magnums are Well Practised in the Shooting Arts and Truly know what the Beast they hold is capable of is also Absurd....Most only Bought the Lazzeroni because the Magazines said it was Cool

True Gun Nutz in the Hunting Realm are few and far between.

 

[arch1965]

magnums

Hi, really .... who cares what the other guy is using. As long as the guy who's shooting it is happy....whatever. The "new magnum" guys are just as bad as the other. They boast more power and tell the "smaller magnum" that he's shooting a garden hose, using that old 7mm Remington magnum.

The only magnum I have is a Remington 700 Deluxe in 8mm Rem Magnum. I love this rifle and will (never) sell it. I have no urge to shoot a Lazzeroni or SUAM or whatever. Their ballistics intrigue me but that's about it. As for the price tag issue, I'd rather buy a classic with some history than the newest fastest creation. I've seen gents at the range with the big magnums, that can't hit the broadside of a barn. It's probably because they have that look like Dad's about to spank them,....just before they pull the trigger

Then I see the old guys with there classic doing cloverleafs at 200 meters Not hard to do the math.

I've come to the realization that "if your happy and you know it, clap your hands", another little ditty Big Red.

Arch

 

[Crashman]

Shoot what you want, and don't worry about the next guy.

 

[444shooter]

I have owned and shot them all, and it boils down to shot placement and the shooters ability. As the old saying goes...practice makes perfect

 

[dpopl8r]

As a wiseman once said

"The most important equipment a hunter can take into the hills are shooting skills and common sense. Big game are killed neatly and cleanly by putting well-constructed bullets in the right place. They are wounded by putting any bullets in the wrong place."

 

[todbartell]

I will try to reply to this thread at approx 2am Sunday morning

 

[roadwarrior]

I think that the average hunter is really miss-informed when it comes to rifle/caliber selection. The average hunter has a hard time getting a nice groupe at 100 yrds, so the big magnums for 300+ yrd shot are a waste. Anyway, most big game here in Quebec is taken well under 100yrds. Range time and proper bullit placement on game are more important factors than having the "big gun". I don't hate those never go to the range, shoot less than a box of ammo per year, don't know how to adjust their fancy scope, don't clean my 1000$+ big magnum rifle guys. I did try to educate a few of them, but to no avail, so now I just grin when they cry about that deer head shot they missed at 35 yrds...