The Rise of the Fat Bolt

conor_90

conor_90

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60 degree three lug bolts seem to have come into fashion these days.

European manufacturers seem to be ahead of the curve here, I believe one of the first to use this design was the mannlicher Schoenauer 1972 with 6 lugs? Who was the first to do the 3 lug design that is now coming into style?

I have sampled a ruger American, and I had a love hate relationship with it, I always though the bolt was pretty neat though.

I also had a SAKO A7, very slick and accurate, probably my favourite PF bolt I’ve owned, bolt was on a diet compared to some others though


So I have come to ask you the experts of CGN:

- is this design easier to manufacture than a more “ traditional” 2 lug 90 degree push feed design? Maybe it requires less machining

- are there any actual advantages to this design beyond low mounting scopes?

- do any other similar designs suffer from the same ailment as the Ruger American rotary mag I owned and require the user to place the round in the chamber directly if they wish to single feed? Im guessing this a result of the poorly designed magazine on the Ruger?

- what is your favourite rifle of this bolt design?

- anyone try the ARC Nucleus? Best of both worlds maybe…

- is the era of the two lug 90 degree pushfeed dead? Or will NA budget rifles keep it going? I know CZ has just come out with a 2 lug design of this variety that seems popular on this board.

Thank you gentlemen!
 
Shorter bolt lift also means heavier lift as you only have 60 degrees to do the same as 90 degrees, that seems to be the only real drawback.
For the budget, the Browning AB3 and Winchester XPR use the exact same fat 3 lug bolt design as both are owned by FN, and are a pretty good step up from the Ruger American. Fit and finish are much better.
I tried 2 Americans, first one was so poorly machined I sent it back for a replacement, I put a box through the replacement and sold it. Stock is just the cheapest garbage, it shot meh, and I found the rotary mags over priced and not reliable, and flimsy as hell.
I have 2 AB3 and no complaints with those, although I don't really care if it's a 3 or 2 lug rifle, as long as it's quality.
 
I can not help on the three lug thing, but on the "fat bolt" thing, I have Schultz and Larsen that bolt body is way, way fatter than on Mauser 98. Has lock up lugs on rear. I believe Roy Weatherby used that action for his first boomers - so that would have been early 1950's, I would guess?? I had understood that the idea was the really small clearance they could achieve between bolt race way diameter and bolt body diameter, if the locking lugs same OD as the bolt body...
 
Forgot about the weatherby! Definitely shades of it in the modern designs. I’ve never shot one, and only handled one recently for the first time. Very smooth bolt, but most of them are when they are cycled empty!

I can’t get over the stock design, and the cartridges never turned my crank.
 
The Voere Titan2 /Kliengunether K-15/Mauser 99 takes the top fat bolt award.
Second place is possibly the Browning BBR.
 
I don't know about fat bolts, but certainly three-lug bolts - the first rifle I paid for was an A-bolt which felt like a million bucks compared to the freebie Enfield and my dad's Model 70. The X-bolts are really nice as well (they also have a rotary magazine but can be single-fed just fine). That's just what has always felt right for me.

That said, no real preference, I care more about how the gun performs when the bolt is closed. I think any design that can be made from bar stock is probably the cheapest vs a bunch of small machined parts. My Rem 700 is a bit gritty and not very smooth, but locks up nice and shoots like a dream and that's what I really care about.
 
In my experience, fat bolts are here to stay. I think of the Weatherby Mark V and the Steyr SBS as being some of the best designed of them. One of the primary goals was to reduce bolt wobble common to most 2-lug designs, in the hopes of improving accuracy. This is executed better in some designs than others, just like the machining by particular manufacturers. Let’s face it, a Ruger American while a budget rifle, does not have the same level of finish or execution as a Mark V. A Mauser M18 as an example, attempts to fill the gap and would sit somewhere in the middle.
 
A fat bolt with a pinned in bolt head sure saves money. Nothing wrong with that if a perfect fit to the receiver ensues, but they don’t feel the most refined.
My favorite of the kind was my Verney-Carron.

The 3 lug concept is a separate issue, the Carl Gustaf, X-Bolt and Sako 75 are examples of great 3 lug actions.
 
One of my smallbore match rifles is a Russian Strela free rifle, the bolt is a three lug /center of bolt body design.
The danged bolt is larger in diameter and has more lug bearing area than my buddy's Sako TRGS in 339 Lapua!

Cat
 
I’ve owned 2 Ruger American rifles, never fired either one (I bought them as project rifles but went different directions). They were my only experience with “fat bolts”.

That said, I have 3 browning x bolts, they aren’t fat bolts but are 60 degree lift. I love them. Technically one is for my wife. I bought her a savage axis years ago, it was a heck of a shooter, but the bolt lift was crazy stiff (even after being broken in). She also had the habit of putting her thumb on top of the bolt (like most newer shooters), thus would occasionally squish her thumb between the bolt and the scope. She much prefers her x bolt, plenty of scope clearance, and she finds it is easier to lift the bolt than her axis was.

All of my earlier bolt guns were 90 degree, I have more or less transitioned toward 70 degree or less now, just for scope clearance. On that note, your choice of optic also makes a big difference in the arena of scope to bolt clearance. Leupold / Redfield being the clear winner of making sleek, quality optics. Most of the newer cheaper stuff is bulky as all get out. It tends to work, but bulky as can be. It’s almost like it’s a contest now: who can make the bulkiest scope. Anyways, rant over, haha.
 
Love/hate my American... Shoots like a dear and the action is pretty nice. Good trigger on her as well. Magazines are GARBAGE, I've got two rotary mags, both a plastic and metal follower flavour, and two straight stack mags. All gaaaaabage! Back on topic the 60° throw is pretty nice, especially for clearing accouterments hanging of the back of your scope. And for a new rifle she's cheap as borscht...
 
I wish they would just start putting 3-5 round AICS mags in new production rifles. That would really improve the ruger American, kimber hunter along with some others I’m sure.
 
conor_90 said:
I wish they would just start putting 3-5 round AICS mags in new production rifles. That would really improve the ruger American, kimber hunter along with some others I’m sure.
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That's a good idea.

I only have experience with the Ruger Americans that use .223 AR15 mags and they work perfectly.

I actually think they are exceptional rifles for the price (About $650 when I bought them) but they are just range toys to me.

As for the 3 lug bolt rifles, I think they work great in many applications. I think they are a better design than the Weatherby Mk V lug design. No way all those little lugs can be making consistent contact with the chamber.

For a hunting rifle I don't see much advantage with the 3 lug design but I like CRF hunting rifles the most anyway.
 
Ruger has the technology, they offer the predator in 6/6.5 creedmoor with an AICS magwell, 60 bucks more msrp than the rotary models.

18 inch 308 on offer but no AICS option, too bad. Might cut into the GSR market share
 
conor_90 said:
Ruger has the technology, they offer the predator in 6/6.5 creedmoor with an AICS magwell, 60 bucks more msrp than the rotary models.

18 inch 308 on offer but no AICS option, too bad. Might cut into the GSR market share
Click to expand...

I wondered why they didn't offer the .308 with AICS, just the 6.5's.
 
From the Akah catalogue:



Europeans getting all the good stuff. Price is a bit stiff but generally a Euros to Canadian dollar msrp works out
 
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