The Ross rifle issue that gave it a bad rep?

drm3m

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I don't own a Ross rifle so I don't personally know about this stuff.

This came from this book.

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Some of the issues with the Ross rifle.

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The snipers were not happy to see the end of the Ross rifle.
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The snipers of the 21st Battalion with their Ross rifles.
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David
 
While there are different opinions, myths, facts, and truths and untruths about the Ross, it was Politics that ended up being expedient in the end. If you use the "search" function, you will find that this same item has been posted here before, and there are several threads and posts on the Ross.

The above paragraphs refer to high tolerances and the "wartime ammunition" as being a factor. In fact, the Canadian Government set the tolerances for the Ross chamber for Canadian manufactured ammunition. When the high quality Canadian ammo arrived in England, it was diverted by the British for machine gun use. At Ypres, the Canadians had been issued British ammunition manufactured by Birmingham Metals and Munitions, Lot B-14 and B-15, which was condemned by the British but was issued to the Canadian troops. Many of these cartridges were oversized at the shoulder, and stuck in the chambers.
 
Basically, they're good guns for our use. If you're in the mud with your life depending on it, or a complete fool with the observational abilities of a mentally handicapped newt who is reassembling the bolt you're good to go.
 
Those cartridges also had a proportion with thick rims. Harold McBride reported Cdn. machinegunners passing every round through the T slot on the face of their 1914 Colt-Browning machineguns' spare bolts, to insure that the rounds would feed, before loading the belts.
 
That particular ammunition should have been condemned for ANY use. Instead, it was issued to he "Colonials".

At the St. Julien fight during the Second battle of Ypres (April 23/4, 1915), the 8th Battalion alone, with a single reserve Company, plugged the Line between the broken French North Africans and the Canadian Corps. I knew and interviewed TWO men who were in that fight. BOTH fired their Ross Rifles until they were too hot to reload, then continued the rifle engagement using a pickup rifle from a casualty. When their original rifles had cooled, they were picked up and the pickup rifles allowed to cool. Rifles were being fired until they were TOO HOT TO BE RELOADED; ammunition was being scavenged from Canadian casualties, of which there were a hideous number. The single Company of Canadians (about 140 men when they went in) were facing a couple of Divisions of German troops which had been massed behind the gas-canisters for a breakthrough attack. The men I interviewed were L/Cpl Robert Courtice and Pte Alex McBain. Both men were in good mental condition and fair physical health when I knew and interviewed them. They were part of that same reserve Company, A Company. Come to remember, they also both still were upset that they had seen the Brass running from Battalion Headquarters and abandoning the Field Hospital to the German advance; this is something which generally is glossed-over or avoided in the history books. L/Cpl Courtice told me, upon being questioned, that the ranges involved in this incredible rifle-to-rifle engagement were "too close to miss". Both men denied vehemently that there had been ANYTHING faulty with their rifles, or with the rifles of the men they were with. Pte McBain became so angry when I mentioned this question that he began swearing about it being "all lies". To be quite honest, I was afraid that he was going to take a poke at me for even suggesting this, despite the 50-year difference in our ages!

Both men remembered that engagement very clearly, partly because their personal combat experience was not a great deal more than that single history-changing battle. Pte McBain was wounded that day (bullet through the hand) and then treated and sent home, it being the idea at that time (before the casualty lists became so horridly long) that a man who had taken a bullet from the enemy had offered enough. L/Cpl Courtice was blown up by a 90-pounder the night before the big attack at Givenchy, only a few weeks later. Out of 12 men in the bay at the time (6 going in, 6 coming out) he was the only survivor. When it was discovered that he still was alive, Colonel Lipsett gave him a drink (Brandy from the Colonel's own canteen) and personally helped to carry him out of the Line, talking to him the whole way to keep him conscious. Cpl Courtice still had chunks of steel coming out of his head when I met him, 56 years later; he had a matchbox full of steel fragments which his body (mostly his head) had expressed over the years: much of what he had taken was far beyond the surgical techniques of 1915 to be removed.

I never met a Great War veteran who had anything BAD to say about the Ross Rifle, apart from the fact that they didn't really LIKE it.

This was put in perspective for me by another old friend, Captain George Dibblee, DCM. Capt. Dibblee had been a cowboy before becoming a Guide to the NWMP in 1907. He joined the Amy in 1914 as a Private soldier and worked his way up to Captain. He was the SECOND man into Cambrai in 1918 because the plank over the Canal broke as he was crossing it; his Sergeant fished him out of the water. In October of 1916, he was with A Company, 5th Battalion, Canadian Mounted Rifles at the suicidal First Assault at Regina Trench (the operational orders were typed on the backs of superfluous Forms of Will!) and took command of the Company when both their own officers and a visiting officer were carried out. As a Sergeant, he held the position for 14 hours against a Brigade of Imperial German Marines before pulling out the remaining (all wounded) 15 to 20 living men. They had gone in as a full Company (140 men) and had got 120 into Regina Trench; only 20 got out. His souvenirs of that one were a piece of shell fragment in one arm, a bullet in the other and a DCM. He knew and served with Capt. George Pearkes VC who said, in a personal letter to me, that Dibblee's heroism was never properly rewarded: THAT coming from a man who HELD the VC! I queried Captain Dibblee regarding the Ross Rifle and he told me that, "The Ross Rifle was UNPOPULAR because of its length and weight; you couldn't get into a dugout with your rifle slung." When I persisted with my question, he said, "We had NO trouble with the Ross Rifle in our outfit (5th Batt, CMR) but we kept our rifles CLEAN, unlike some outfits that never cleaned their equipment."

For me, coming from men with THOSE personal tales to tell, this is enough.

I did, however, personally query the late Ellwood Epps regarding the Ross Rifle and was amazed when this quiet and friendly old man exploded into cursing and swearing: "It's all lies! It's G*d-damned LIES! There's nothing wrong with a G*d-damned Ross Rifle! I've worked on HUNDREDS of them!" Once it was determined that we were on the same side in this debate, things quieted down..... and Ellwood told me that he would be happy to rebarrel a 1910 Ross for me...... in .280 calibre. Alas! I never had the money..... and now Ellwood is gone.

But that "conversation" with Ellwood was the icing on the cake for me. I own nearly a dozen Rosses and I shoot them without fear and with wonderful results.

But I ALSO check the Bolt on a 1910 before I shoot it.

The Ross's main problems BOTH were made by Humans. The RIFLE itself is without peer from its own time.... and it has VERY few peers today, a CENTURY after the first 1910 was built.

That is a record which is awfully hard to beat.
 
The Ross was one of the few military rifles adopted without extensive field trials.
The galling bolts and chamber size has been extensively covered but the Ross MkIII mag and rear sight were also poorly designed.
When Ross designed his 280 military rifle he put a Mauser type mag on it. The MkIII mag was about the only military rifle mag that could not be stripped for cleaning and in addition the early ones were made of very thin metal and fragile.
The rear sight was exposed and attached by a very small hinge piece. The elevation could be easily moved by accident since there is no positive stop. The windage is inconvenient to use.
If the Ross had received trials it would have been better. However the trials were conducted on the Ypres Salient and confidence in the Ross was shattered.
They sure are nice collectors items.
 
For such a maligned trench gun, due to it's extremely tight and proper tolerences compared to the very loose Lee Enfield, it sure found great success with the snipers at the time as their prefered rifle. Now that says a great deal towards quality and reliability right there. I love mine and will never sell it.
 
When the ammunition problems reared their ugly heads, the Rosses had their chambers reamed and the world was told all about it.

What was NOT mentioned was that the British ammunition got so bad that even the Lee-Enfield had its chamber made larger, beginning in middle 1916.

A popular misconception is that Ross used his own dimensions for the chambers. This is not true: Ross obtained his chamber dimensions for the Reamers from Enfield and had precise duplicates made by Clymer Reamers in the USA.

What actually happened was that the two rifles, the Ross and the Lee-Enfield, were proofed identically..... and it was here that the utterly massive strength of the Ross action worked against itself. With the Lee-Enfield, the rifle was given a Proof round, followed by an oiled Ball round. The Proof round brought the CHAMBER DIAMETER to its final dimensions, actually EXPANDING the Chamber about 2 thou. The oiled Ball round then "mated" the Locking Lugs into their Recesses, owing to the very great rearward thrust obtained with the oiled round. The same process was used in Proving the Ross Rifle, but the Ross action was so massive that the Chambers did not expand the full 2 thou with the Proof round.

Result: a slightly-undersized chamber, despite IDENTICAL Proofing procedures.

HOW strong is a Mark III Ross action? I don't think anyone knows, actually. The Mark II Ross had 40% more locking area than a '98 Mauser and double the locking mass; it was rated at (and took without failure) pressures over the 100,000 psi mark. The Mark III action was STRONGER in every way. The Mark III action was tried with ammunition which already had wrecked their pressure gun; pressures were well over the 125,000 psi at which the pressure gun had failed. This is very close to the shear strength of the action itself. Nothing happened. Testing was stopped because they had no way to build pressures any HIGHER. I would think it should have been safe with 42,000-psi military ammunition, at least.

Result? We STILL don't know exactly how strong the Mark III action actually is.

Hope this helps.
 
The Ross action is a strong one.
When most any competently designed rifle fails becuse of overload, it is not because the steel in the action was stressed beyond its deformation or yield point, it is because the brass cartridge case was stressed too far, and the brass casing failed, allowing release of uncontained high pressure gas. The failure point of brass is far less than the failure point of steel. Some firearms are much better designed from the standpoint of handling loss of gas containment than others. An advantage of a rimmed cartridge is that less of the cartridge case is left protruding from the breech of the barrel. When the case is well supported, there is less likelihood that the casing will fail catastrophically. This is why a '98 Mauser is superior to the derivative '03 Springfield from the standpoint of handling cartridge case failure. The American redesigners degraded the safety inherent in the Mauser design.
 
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