The Russian SKS is a Milsurp
- Thread starter DANCESWITHEMPTIES
- Start date
I like these guys, a little long winded I find, but very interesting.
Kinda shocked he made very deep research for the history and then says the biggest stupid myth "SKS was replaced by AK". C'mon, it' 2024 and we have Internet and documents copies! He even says about development of "system of firearm" consisting of carbine, assault rifle and LMG, but then "SKS was short-lived and replaced by AK". BS. And then a mix of speculation and incorrect conclusions about stamped steel receivers and how it went...
I find he's a blatherskite. A bully know nothing, and I don't like the way he talks over and generally treats Maeve.
fat tony
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Even well regarded chans such as Forgotten Weapons are long on speculation and short on historical facts when it comes to any Soviet or Eastern Bloc weapon. I've found this about American chans. They also make many errors when speculating on non American weapons. Not USA bashing, it is a general recurring theme on social media.
Promoting knowledge versus having a popular money making channel.
Promoting knowledge versus having a popular money making channel.
Now that is true!
Did the AK not replace the SKS?
June 18th 1949 post war rearmament
The blog also links to the original Soviet archive document he translated.
What information do you have that the SKS was not replaced by the AK rifle?
gewehr76
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm going to tell you a little fact. When Russia accepts something for military service it always stays in service. So no matter what was replaced by what, its still in active service.
Examples are Mosin Nagant, TT33. Maxim M1910, It can go on and on. WW2 AA guns are dusted off and put in use defending cities.
So please rest assured, SKS was not replaced by AK47 and AK74 did not replace AK47 all these weapon systems are still in active service.
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You quoted the blog, they refer to the document where trinity of new firearms was accepted into service. This is important document. It tells us several things: AK47 was never envisioned as replacement of SKS45, both had their role, one as a replacement for SMGs and second as a replacement for carbines; both of them accepted at the same time so chronologically one can't be a replacement of another.
You're asking what information I have on SKS not being replaced. This is incorrect logic. Correctly would be to ask: what documents or facts do we have that would support theory that AK replaced (or "displaced" as it was said in YT video) SKS. I have no such facts and haven't see such documents yet. Thus I consider this as pure speculation. Of course we might discuss the meaning of "replacement" or "displacement", as over the year I am sure we could find some branches of Soviet army that switched from SKS to AK. But as accepted firearm SKS was not replaced or displaced. To claim "replacement" or "displacement" we would need to compare initial plans on distribution and arming (still classified information, yes SKS and AK47 plans, manufacturing data, related documents are still classified) and then actual distribution of both firearms (also classified). Without such analysis or without any other facts, how can we say something happened?
P.S. Interesting fact, the quoted document 2611-1033ss June 18th, 1949 accepts SKS-45 with "knife style bayonet" (literally there's correction in a documents that says "with knife instead of bayonet"). However by that time, according the previous order 18-c from 21st Jan 1948 they had to manufacture 1700 SKSs by 1st of June 1948 and they were with spike bayonet and in 1949 they kept cranking spike bayonets as well.
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I probably should have articulated which exact points I was making with that article.
1. There was a family of firearms envisioned by the Soviet army for issue the SKS carbine, AK47 SMG, and RPD LMG. So that is true.
2. My inference is that the SKS was replaced by the AK47/AKM because we see the SKS was meant to be an issued frontline rifle by replacing the M44 mosin (by the above document) and the SKS production stopped in 1958 yet the AK47/AKM continued production until it was replaced by the AK74. So the inference is that the SKS was replaced by the AK as the SKS stopped being produced and issued.
CIA Report of soviet weapons 1969
Describes how the SKS was largely replaced by the AK47/AKM
A CIA intelligence document points out the SKS was replaced by the Kalashnikov assault rifles around 1949.
The CIA document was prepared in 1965 but it does highlight that at least by 1965 the Soviet army had stopped issuing SKS rifles and only issued AKM rifles instead.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp82-00046r000500300007-6
Soviet Table of equipment for the 95th Guards rifle division in 1954 detailing that an approximately equal number of SKS carbines and Kalashnikov machine guns were issued to the rifle regiment.
In summary the SKS was adopted but quickly replaced by the AK47/AKM. Doing more research on this the SKS wasn't completely gone from the Soveit army but it in frontline infantry units the SKS was completely replaced by the AK47/AKM. The inference from the 95th guards rifle division being equipped with an equal number of SKS's and AK's instead of the typical 2-3 SMG gunners and 5-6 rifleman.
Unfortunately I'm drawing mostly from US CIA documents, instead of Soviet ones as I can't read russian. But I feel confident in saying the SKS was replaced by the AK47/AKM at least by 1965.
1. There was a family of firearms envisioned by the Soviet army for issue the SKS carbine, AK47 SMG, and RPD LMG. So that is true.
2. My inference is that the SKS was replaced by the AK47/AKM because we see the SKS was meant to be an issued frontline rifle by replacing the M44 mosin (by the above document) and the SKS production stopped in 1958 yet the AK47/AKM continued production until it was replaced by the AK74. So the inference is that the SKS was replaced by the AK as the SKS stopped being produced and issued.
CIA Report of soviet weapons 1969
Describes how the SKS was largely replaced by the AK47/AKM
A CIA intelligence document points out the SKS was replaced by the Kalashnikov assault rifles around 1949.
The CIA document was prepared in 1965 but it does highlight that at least by 1965 the Soviet army had stopped issuing SKS rifles and only issued AKM rifles instead.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp82-00046r000500300007-6
Soviet Table of equipment for the 95th Guards rifle division in 1954 detailing that an approximately equal number of SKS carbines and Kalashnikov machine guns were issued to the rifle regiment.
In summary the SKS was adopted but quickly replaced by the AK47/AKM. Doing more research on this the SKS wasn't completely gone from the Soveit army but it in frontline infantry units the SKS was completely replaced by the AK47/AKM. The inference from the 95th guards rifle division being equipped with an equal number of SKS's and AK's instead of the typical 2-3 SMG gunners and 5-6 rifleman.
Unfortunately I'm drawing mostly from US CIA documents, instead of Soviet ones as I can't read russian. But I feel confident in saying the SKS was replaced by the AK47/AKM at least by 1965.
As the first source I would like to draw your attention to some factual mistakes in the document, for example "(m44) was replaced by .. SKS-45 and AK-47".
Second source is much better, it refers to secret Soviet publication "Military thought" and indeed, there's a direct claim about replacement. I will see if I can find original. BTW, thanks for this document, very unique, I'll will have to read it all..
Third document - I see where they say 50/50 ratio, but where do you see 1965 date when they "stopped issuing SKS", which page of document?
Second source is much better, it refers to secret Soviet publication "Military thought" and indeed, there's a direct claim about replacement. I will see if I can find original. BTW, thanks for this document, very unique, I'll will have to read it all..
Third document - I see where they say 50/50 ratio, but where do you see 1965 date when they "stopped issuing SKS", which page of document?
Following up this conversation. Did some research.
Almost immediately after acceptance in service there was a request to designers to start working on new models of "avtomat-carbine" as a successor for SKS, and for "light avtomat" as a successor for AK47. Simonov provided almost 10 specimens for trials, Kalashnikov provided also provided his vision for "avtomat-carbine" and his specimen was favorable. At the same time Kalashnikov specimens for "light avtomat" project were able to show results in accuracy similar to carbine, while keeping benefits of firepower of "avtomat". Probably seeing this and probably communicating these facts (these are just my assumptions and not facts) we have 1955 decision of Ministry of Defense to stop pursuing "avtomat-carbine" project and unify these two projecting into one - "light avtomat" project. As as result Kalashnikov again wins and his project accepted in Apr 1959 as "AKM".
So, in conclusion, I guess it would be correct to say that AKM has displaced SKS, however in the same manner it is correct to say that AKM displaced AK47. And both are results of 1955 decision about "unification" of the "carbine-avtomat" and "avtomat". I haven't yet found this 1955 document, nor have I seen commission reports (I'm 99% sure they are still classified, that why BTW well know author Chumak said there would be no book about SKS anytime soon and his book on AK is limited on pre-acceptance period), it would be interesting to see details, though post ww2 is not my main area of interest.
P.S. Kalashikov's "avtomat-carbine" M1952 project samples
"6-100"
"6-103", slightly different one
Video of "6-100", unfortunately only in Russian, where R. CHumak says "...development of "light avtomat", that was intended as replacement for both "carbine" SKS and "avtomat" AK-47". So I think I got it right with other sources.
https://kalashnikovgroup.ru/media/kalashnikov100/kalashnikov100-avtomat-karabin-kalashnikova
P.P.S. This source (https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1978-01-17b.pdf) was originally provided by this guy, he was executed for treason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Penkovsky
P.P.P.S. And the was a movie about him, that had been waiting for 3 years in my "to-watch" list.... gotta see it now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courier_(2020_film)
Almost immediately after acceptance in service there was a request to designers to start working on new models of "avtomat-carbine" as a successor for SKS, and for "light avtomat" as a successor for AK47. Simonov provided almost 10 specimens for trials, Kalashnikov provided also provided his vision for "avtomat-carbine" and his specimen was favorable. At the same time Kalashnikov specimens for "light avtomat" project were able to show results in accuracy similar to carbine, while keeping benefits of firepower of "avtomat". Probably seeing this and probably communicating these facts (these are just my assumptions and not facts) we have 1955 decision of Ministry of Defense to stop pursuing "avtomat-carbine" project and unify these two projecting into one - "light avtomat" project. As as result Kalashnikov again wins and his project accepted in Apr 1959 as "AKM".
So, in conclusion, I guess it would be correct to say that AKM has displaced SKS, however in the same manner it is correct to say that AKM displaced AK47. And both are results of 1955 decision about "unification" of the "carbine-avtomat" and "avtomat". I haven't yet found this 1955 document, nor have I seen commission reports (I'm 99% sure they are still classified, that why BTW well know author Chumak said there would be no book about SKS anytime soon and his book on AK is limited on pre-acceptance period), it would be interesting to see details, though post ww2 is not my main area of interest.
P.S. Kalashikov's "avtomat-carbine" M1952 project samples
"6-100"
"6-103", slightly different one
Video of "6-100", unfortunately only in Russian, where R. CHumak says "...development of "light avtomat", that was intended as replacement for both "carbine" SKS and "avtomat" AK-47". So I think I got it right with other sources.
https://kalashnikovgroup.ru/media/kalashnikov100/kalashnikov100-avtomat-karabin-kalashnikova
P.P.S. This source (https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1978-01-17b.pdf) was originally provided by this guy, he was executed for treason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Penkovsky
P.P.P.S. And the was a movie about him, that had been waiting for 3 years in my "to-watch" list.... gotta see it now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courier_(2020_film)
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