The secret load, best velocity and accuracy! Black magic and the Handloaders art.

[John Y Cannuck]

The idea for this thread, was an article by Dave Scovill in this month's HANDLOADER titled "It is What it is".

Most of us are aware of the basic steps of reloading a cartridge Case prep, bullet & powder selection, Primer selection etc. And the basic steps of combining those elements into a cartridge that goes bang. However, the Black Arts of fine tuning the basics only become apparent after a few years of dedicated loading. Such tricks as neck sizing, primer pocket/flash hole uniforming. neck sizing, partial full length sizing, Checking cartridge runnout (seeing if the assembled cartridge is straight and true), setting different cartridge Over All Length (OAL) to achieve a certain distance from the lands and many many more in a list that seems infinite.

Many are borrowed from the bench rest crowd. Guys who shoot rifles that are only remotely like sporting rifles, and who by the way do shoot flat base bullets as well as boat-tails, Some of the stuff they do just doesn't cross over with any significant benefit.

Thing is, how many of us take for granted that these tricks improve our accuracy to a degree that makes it worth the effort? Each "trick" has that possibility, but, if it doesn't work in YOUR rifle, you are wasting your time. Now I fully expect this post to be followed by "this method works, and I have the target to prove it!" Do you? One target proves not a single thing, except you and your load were "ON" that day.
You need to do a fair bit of shooting (honest shooting) with factory loads or equivalent, and establish a base line accuracy, then do the same amount of shooting with your "trick" load, to establish if the gain (if any) is worth the effort. Now if the gain is infinitesimal, you will have to decide for yourself, if the gain is worth the effort for what you are doing.


The same should also be true of that fancy expensive gadget you stuck on your rifle, whatever it might be.

I'm not going to kill the idea of the gains possible here, I have seen for myself that huge gains are possible, IN SOME RIFLES! The same load in another may be indistinguishable from factory fodder, or even worse!

For those of us who are not in the "I need .5" groups" category, but would like to see smaller groups without a lot of fuss, Dave added this tidbit. Remember that even if your group is 3" in size (yeah horrific I know) it means that your bullet is landing 1.5" from point of aim. Puts it in perspective doesn't it?

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Lets take for example Neck sizing.
If your rifle has a fairly sloppy chamber, that can allow the cartridge not to be lined up well with the bore. This means that the bullet when fired will not hit the lead squarely. It will of course be re-aligned as it passes down the bore, but that initial distortion shows up on paper, in varying degrees depending on a lot of variables.
So in this case, (pun intended) neck sizing, the process of sizing only the neck of the cartridge can have tremendous benefit. But beware! Some neck sizing dies do not support the case very well, and may not get it a centered as you might like.

Sounds great, but tried in your rifle, it has no benefit at all. WTF? The rifle guru said it worked! Seems your riflehas a good chamber, you simply do not need to do this!

 

[rral22]

All sorts of techniques work magic at times in some guns and some loads, but very few techniques or tricks are magically effective ALL the time. But for me, the really important trick to working your way to a very good load in any rifle is keeping accurate, consistent, and complete records of every load you make, or modification to a rifle you perform, and the consequent results that you see in very careful range testing of the effects. Accurate records that go back over 38 years are a powerful tool to help you know what does and what doesn't work. Write EVERYTHING down and keep it.

 

[hunter5425]

Many handloaders are OCD, myself included and get satisfaction from knowing their ammunition is as close to perfect as possible. I find that the distance the bullet is seated from the lands makes some difference in most rifles especially if using bullets with a secant ogive as the contact with the lands is more abrupt. I also found for my rifles ( aftermarket barrels but regular SAAMI chambers) that neck turning and de-burring flash holes has no measurable effect.Bullet run out if excessive will cause flyers that open up the average group size in all my rifles including the factory ones but it needs to be excessive (.005+) in most cases, except in very accurate rifles. I do still de-burr flash holes , partially turn necks, neck size target brass, and check run out ( remember OCD) but I realize much of what I do does not affect performance in most rifles.

 

[stubblejumper]

I find that the best recipe for finding the most accurate load in my rifles, it to experiment with different components. Some people find a load in a manual, and then they take special care to make sure that they do every step in the loading process properly, but they don't try different components. You can have a perfectly prepared case, and a precisely measured powder charge, and have the bullet perfectly aligned in the case, and you still may not obtain the ultimate accuracy for that firearm. I have seen people get very confused, when their meticulously prepared handloads, did not shoot as well, as a lower priced factory load.

 

[Fassteel]

I find that the best recipe for finding the most accurate load in my rifles, it to experiment with different components. Some people find a load in a manual, and then they take special care to make sure that they do every step in the loading process properly, but they don't try different components. You can have a perfectly prepared case, and a precisely measured powder charge, and have the bullet perfectly aligned in the case, and you still may not obtain the ultimate accuracy for that firearm. I have seen people get very confused, when their meticulously prepared handloads, did not shoot as well, as a lower priced factory load.

I had a CZ 22 hornet that was just fantastic with the factory hornady 35gr vmax load. It was the first time I had experienced a rifle with factory ammo that shot better than any hand loads. John Barsness, a fairly well respected hunting and shooting writer has done a 2 part series on the 24hr campsite web site on building accurate ammo and he has some interesting ideas for the way he loads. A very good read for most folks. FS

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Seating from the lands is an example of a procedure that is often misunderstood, and that can mean it doesn't work, because you are not doing it correctly, OR that you don't need to do it at all.
Some rifles won't permit this adjustment at all, simply because there isn't enough room in the magazine, or in the case of some tube magazines, it ties up the action if the assembled cartridge is too long.

Then there is the guy that figures it out for one bullet, and assumes that using the same OAL it will be correct for all types. NO!

I try to aim for about .05" or a tad less from the rifling, and as a generality, it works for me, in rifles that will allow me to do that. May not work for you, There are a lot of personal variables. I don't shoot expensive bullets often, and I rarely shoot boat-tails. That means the bullet profiles and materials of the ones I shoot may be different than the ones you shoot. Same holds true for loads from a manual, or from any other source. You change one component, including the rifle the load was fired in, even the technique used in assembling the load, and both accuracy, and velocity can have big changes.

Tried to get close to the lands on a 96 Swede I had once, I'd have to seat the bullet ahead of the case to accomplish it on that rifle. Didn't matter, the old bugger would shoot!

 

[Eynhallow]

I agree with John Y Cannuck. The OAL is different for each type of bullet. For example, the OAL differs between a 52 grain SMK and a 53 grain SMK. When I strive for precision, that is trying to get each bullet to do exactly the same thing shot after shot, I try to keep all the variables exactly the same. Then when I find a "sweet spot", I might try to vary the OAL, or change from a standard primer to a benchrest primer. The thing here is to change only one variable at a time.

Having said all that, precision cannot be attained only at the loading bench. The real world throws all of its stuff at you when you bring your carefully crafted handloads to the range. Shooting conditions are the variables that seem to affect me the most. Everything from temperature, wind, humidity and how much coffee I have consumed seems to have an effect. So, when you read above about record keeping, I find it helpful to include environmental data in my notes.

 

[hend238]

I agree with John Y Cannuck. The OAL is different for each type of bullet. For example, the OAL differs between a 52 grain SMK and a 53 grain SMK. When I strive for precision, that is trying to get each bullet to do exactly the same thing shot after shot, I try to keep all the variables exactly the same. Then when I find a "sweet spot", I might try to vary the OAL, or change from a standard primer to a benchrest primer. The thing here is to change only one variable at a time.

Having said all that, precision cannot be attained only at the loading bench. The real world throws all of its stuff at you when you bring your carefully crafted handloads to the range. Shooting conditions are the variables that seem to affect me the most. Everything from temperature, wind, humidity and how much coffee I have consumed seems to have an effect. So, when you read above about record keeping, I find it helpful to include environmental data in my notes.

Absolutely! What worked perfectly at 25 deg and low humidity will not work as well at -5 and high humidity, for example. Once you find the "perfect load" you can't expect it to be perfect forever and in all environmental conditions. Of course it depends on what that perfect load is used for. Hunting - Sure that load will be great for years. Benchrest - Not a chance. Unfortunately it is not practical in most situations to chase that perfect load or "tune" as the conditions change. OAL has an enormous affect on achieving the best accuracy in your rifle. Don't have tunnel vision thinking that best accuracy is always with the bullet into or touching the lands. It's quite often the case but not always. You just have to experiment.

A handy load development trick BR shooters use to tune their rifles before a match is to shoot groups in a grid pattern. Meaning a target with maybe 20 or 25 aiming points. Say 5 across and 5 down. Then a hand full of rounds are loaded with varying powder charges and seating depths. Of course the shooter knows a general starting point of his rifle based on meticulous notes so this procedure is not as willy nilly as it sounds. Anyway, the first row of bulls will be the same seating depth but varied charges. The second row will be a different seating depth and the same varied charges. The 3rd row again will have a different seating depth and the same varied charge. You get the point. Once this grid is completed, it is clear where the rifles likes to shoot for the given conditions. At some point the groups will be at their smallest even with a slightly higher or lower powder charge. Pick the powder charge in the middle of that window. The larger that window is, the better chance you have of the load staying in tune throughout the match as the conditions change. At this point you may or may not tweak things a tenth or two. As for the seating depth, when the groups form on the target in the same place regardless of powder charge (within reason), the optimum OAL has been found for the bullet being used. Of course this method is more effective in rifles that shoot very well to begin with. If your rifle sprays bullets all over the paper, then it would be difficult to interpret the results. If done correctly it's an effective way to quickly find a good load for your rifle using your powder of choice. Yes I know it's not practical in every discipline of shooting but a great way for the large number of shooters and hunters who experiment at 100 yards or so to find the perfect load.

One more thing. Load development at the range is a waste of time and components if you're not using wind flags or at least some sort of wind indicator! How do you know if that "bad load" was actually a load problem or the wind reversed on you, died, increased, updraft, downdraft, swirled, when you pulled the trigger? (Insert: "My bullet is traveling too fast or is too heavy to be affected by the wind" ) Taking note what the wind was doing when you pulled the trigger is as important as every other aspect of precision reloading.

 

[kman300]

For hunting rifles I have started using the following approach to save time and money by not fussing with what isn't important to me.

I pick a bullet I want to use e.g. 200gr partition. I pick a minimum speed I will be happy with e.g. 3000fps. I pick the maximum range I will be hunting with said rifle and scope combo e.g. 400yards. Then I pick the game this bullet rifle and scope are intended for. For white tail and bigger out to 400 I'm happy with 1.5" or better.

So for my above example if I can get a 200 part going 3k and group less than 1.5" I'm done. If in can achieve said results by simply FL sizing and dropping charges without having to weigh each one all the better.

Everyone has to decide what they want out of their rifle and bullet choice.

I have different expectations from my 6.5x47 and my muzzle loader and so on.

 

[HeavyTread]

I'm just starting out in reloading, but I have a good grounding in a lot of other areas in which woo and pseudo-science get repeat washed until they sound like reasonable, well researched, evidence-based fact.

I find myself wondering how much of the received wisdom I read is useful and how much is the handloader's equivalent of the audiophile's dilemma, where ever-increasing levels of attention to detail by enthusiasts, who are already detail oriented and enjoy tinkering, pushes the bar higher and higher until you get into the realm of the absurd with things like gold plated S/PDIF cables and Shakti Stones.

Or, if these things do make a difference, how much of a difference? Enough to be significant when all other uncontrolled factors, including the shooter come into play? It might make a difference if your rifle is anchored to a heavy sled and the only part of your body that interacts with it at firing time is the pad of your finger, but how much of a difference does it make in the 'real' world, practical sense?

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, nor asserting anything. I'm too new for that and am genuinely curious about it.

How much of this stuff has been verified in a controlled environment?

 

[hend238]

I'm just starting out in reloading, but I have a good grounding in a lot of other areas in which woo and pseudo-science get repeat washed until they sound like reasonable, well researched, evidence-based fact.

I find myself wondering how much of the received wisdom I read is useful and how much is the handloader's equivalent of the audiophile's dilemma, where ever-increasing levels of attention to detail by enthusiasts, who are already detail oriented and enjoy tinkering, pushes the bar higher and higher until you get into the realm of the absurd with things like gold plated S/PDIF cables and Shakti Stones.

Or, if these things do make a difference, how much of a difference? Enough to be significant when all other uncontrolled factors, including the shooter come into play? It might make a difference if your rifle is anchored to a heavy sled and the only part of your body that interacts with it at firing time is the pad of your finger, but how much of a difference does it make in the 'real' world, practical sense?

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, nor asserting anything. I'm too new for that and am genuinely curious about it.

How much of this stuff has been verified in a controlled environment?

All very good observations. Many of the "things" do make a little difference and when coupled all together, the results can be seen on paper, in the right application. Does de-burring the flash holes in your 30-30 brass help accuracy in your Grandfathers Model 94 Winchester? Not likely. I do it because I'm a perfectionist. Should you? Why not? It definitely won't hurt accuracy. Do I clean primer pockets before I load 45 ACP on my Dillon 650? Nope. In this case, whether it is right or wrong, I don't think it would make a difference so I don't do it. And I'm too lazy to clean thousands of pockets! I can't shoot a pistol well enough to see any accuracy gains from OCD preppred brass. Do I sort bullets by weight and base to ogive measurements, trim the meplat, sort brass, etc, etc, etc, etc when preparing for an Fclass match? You bet I do! In this case every tiny bit of accuracy gain is worth while when shooting at 1000 yards. I personally would see a difference in my scores when using 140g SMK bullets with ragged meplats compared to trued ones. This is of course with one particular rifle and one particular load. It's not always the case every time. But I don't care because it gives me confidence and that is what counts. The placebo effect kind of thing. Whether it is worth or not is a moot point in my mind. Do what you want to do and make your own decisions of how in-depth you want to be. Reloading is a definitely a labour of love. The more experience you get, the more you'll realize how little you know and that is the beauty of it. There is always something to learn and it's up to you how you apply that knowledge.

 

[blauber]

Methinks reloading is a learned craft - at least it was for me and I'm most likely not done. Does anyone know exactly why one of their identical loads impacts .5" from the other? It could be that bullet that fouled the barrel, a weighing that was .2 gr off (due to +/- .1 gr range on the beam), an ogive difference in a manufacturers bullet, a brass cartridge that became work hardened and no longer conformed to the chamber...

But to think of all the little tricks, the die selection, the primer choice, the digital scales to .02 gr, the press and/or even the lube choice - it's all a pursuit in good fun. Personally, I "needed" a Rockchucker single stage as the older press had its shortcomings (in theory only). Have I tried any other press...good god no, no desire as I'm shooting consistently and have the accuracy I need (and load development in writing...a chore but handy!).

I say headspace (not mine) is something to keep an eye on.

 

[beltfed]

Lets take for example Neck sizing.
If your rifle has a fairly sloppy chamber, that can allow the cartridge not to be lined up well with the bore. This means that the bullet when fired will not hit the lead squarely. It will of course be re-aligned as it passes down the bore, but that initial distortion shows up on paper, in varying degrees depending on a lot of variables.
So in this case, (pun intended) neck sizing, the process of sizing only the neck of the cartridge can have tremendous benefit. But beware! Some neck sizing dies do not support the case very well, and may not get it a centered as you might like.

Sounds great, but tried in your rifle, it has no benefit at all. WTF? The rifle guru said it worked! Seems your riflehas a good chamber, you simply do not need to do this!

I thought neck sizing was predominately to get uniform thickness and concentric necks which leads to uniform neck tension and therefore less velocity spread which then translates to less vertical stringing at long range (at least that is why I do it - as well as having to because of a tight chamber).

The problem with hand loading is there are so many variables that depend on other things to be 'A' or 'B' or 'C' or ......and it's a slippery slope.
Some might argue neck sizing will only be a benefit if you are segregating cases and bullets...then there is the powder chiefs that trickle one kernel at a time. All in the name of uniformity......here comes the wind and mirage.....oh boy!

 

[John Y Cannuck]

I'll throw another wrench into the works here. A few years back an American gunsmith posted that he'd found a lot of factory chambers are not aligned well with the bores. If that's the issue, the only way you can beat it is to mark each case's position relative to a reference point on the action so at each firing it returns to the chamber in the same orientation.

Obviously that's something totally impractical, unless you are a bench rest shooter, chambering one round at a time by hand. Look at the procedure you are thinking of trying. Is it practical? Are the gains worth the effort for what you are doing?

Sometimes, as mentioned above, it's a labour of love, squeaking out every trick, worth it or not, to gain that tiniest bit of accuracy. But beware, do it one step at a time, and do lots of shooting to see if there is an improvement over the shooting you have already done.

On neck sizing, here's a good example of a rifle, hell a series of rifles, where neck sizing usually pays off. That would be most every military rifle chambered in 303Br. There are a few exceptions, I have one, an unaltered #10 Ross. with a tight chamber, and an excellent bore. Chambers in most military rifles were generously cut, to accommodate dirty, even corroded ammo.

Loading for some of my SMLE rifles I run the die down only far enough to size part of the neck. This leaves a very visible false shoulder on the neck, and aligns the case well.

But getting back to my point, if you try this procedure, don't just assume it works! Get out there and shoot, a lot, compare your results to those before you did the procedure. If you find it doesn't work, or the difference isn't worth it, why mess with it? Try something else. One at a time you will eventually make gains, and become a better shot in the process.

 

[silverfoxdj]

Great thread.. Thanks

 

[hend238]

If the neck thickness is not uniform around its circumference then no amount of neck sizing will fix it. The neck thickness will always be varied unless you neck turn. You could ream I guess but that process sucks IMO! Neck sizing with a bushing provides a great adjustable method of ensuring uniform neck tension provided there are not other factors at play. Another reason many neck size is to help with case alignment and support in the chamber and to not work harden the brass due to repeated full length resizing. Eventually though, you will have to at least bump the shoulder back so the round will chamber properly. That's been my experience at least with some cartridges. I had some 6.5x284 brass that was fired around 8 to 10 times and only neck sized before they started to be tight on chambering. I used a body die to resize them but even with the die base touching the shell holder, the brass would not resize enough to chamber properly. I considered trying to anneal the cases but at that time I wasn't prepared to go down that road. I could have ground the die base a bit or ordered a custom(ish) die to achieve what I needed but I couldn't be bothered. I just bought new brass after about 12 firings. A properly matched full length die to your chamber and with a neck bushing is very effective and accurate way to size brass, especially in tight/custom chambers. Some tight chambers with hot rod loads require a bit of full length sizing.

On a slightly different note; Who only neck sizes when loading for their M1A? There is a lot of literature against it but not much supporting it. I for one use a small base, full length with neck bushing in my Nat'l Match. I'm curious to hear other's opinion.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

I've always found I could achieve the accuracy level I wanted without neck turning. This is not to say that some of my cases don't require it, some of them you can visibly see that the neck is thicker on one side. It would likely make a difference on those cases to turn the necks, however, there is always the dustbin method.
For me that works (I simply chuck those cases). Now if I were shooting a round with very expensive brass, or doing serious target work, it might change my technique. The point is that a reloader doesn't have to do all the fancy tricks, if he/she can achieve the performance level wanted without them. Many times you can do that by trying other things.

 

[hend238]

I've always found I could achieve the accuracy level I wanted without neck turning. This is not to say that some of my cases don't require it, some of them you can visibly see that the neck is thicker on one side. It would likely make a difference on those cases to turn the necks, however, there is always the dustbin method.
For me that works (I simply chuck those cases). Now if I were shooting a round with very expensive brass, or doing serious target work, it might change my technique. The point is that a reloader doesn't have to do all the fancy tricks, if he/she can achieve the performance level wanted without them. Many times you can do that by trying other things.

I only neck turn for tight neck chambers for obvious reasons. I have one very accurate varmint rifle in 22-250AI where I just cleaned up the necks a little to remove the high spots. Couldn't tell you now if it made any difference. Go figure.

 

[Ganderite]

I'm just starting out in reloading, but I have a good grounding in a lot of other areas in which woo and pseudo-science get repeat washed until they sound like reasonable, well researched, evidence-based fact.

I find myself wondering how much of the received wisdom I read is useful and how much is the handloader's equivalent of the audiophile's dilemma, where ever-increasing levels of attention to detail by enthusiasts, who are already detail oriented and enjoy tinkering, pushes the bar higher and higher until you get into the realm of the absurd with things like gold plated S/PDIF cables and Shakti Stones.

Or, if these things do make a difference, how much of a difference? Enough to be significant when all other uncontrolled factors, including the shooter come into play? It might make a difference if your rifle is anchored to a heavy sled and the only part of your body that interacts with it at firing time is the pad of your finger, but how much of a difference does it make in the 'real' world, practical sense?

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, nor asserting anything. I'm too new for that and am genuinely curious about it.

How much of this stuff has been verified in a controlled environment?

Handloading is a hobby in itself. You can jump in with two feet, or just "make ammo" so you can shoot.

I have had access to the finest ballistic labs in the land, and unlike 99% of the guys working there, I am actually interested in the results. I have taken advantage of the labs, over the years, to run a few tests for purely my own interest (as opposed to corporate interests).

One test I ran was on brass preparation. I started with weighed brass (308 Win, cases in 0.3gr increments). Brass was full length sized. 20 were loaded normally, 20 cases had flash hole deburring on the inside, 20 had primer pocket uniforming, and 20 had both flash hole and uniforming.

The 20 round batches were shot in the lab, with a notation of pressure and velocity for each round.

Deburring the flash holes showed a significant improvement. Pocket uniforming did nothing.

FWIW