The Shotgun In Modern Combat - Drone Defense

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joe6167

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Lately I've been thinking about how the shotgun could become quite relevant again in the modern battlefield, particularly for anti-drone defense.

I'm just surprised that we have seen the widespread issue of shotguns all throughout Ukraine. Russia has the domestic Saiga AK shotgun that they could hypothetically hand out. Just have guys carrying mags of different types of loads...

Also, some of you may remember an episode of mythbusters where they tested using shotguns to shoot grenades being thrown into trenches, so again it could be useful in deflecting some of the nasty things that drones like to drop on people.

So I thought I'd compile some videos on the topic.


Shooting "drone analogues" (laundry detergent bottles) at a distance of 400 ft with target loads. 300 ft seems to be the absolute max effective range for getting hits, within 200 ft seems viable.

 
If someone can find the video, here are the results of Mythbusters shooting grenades:

MythBusters Episode 216: Fire in the Hole
https://mythresults.com/fire-in-the-hole

It is possible to shoot a thrown grenade in midair and set it off, render it harmless, or redirect it back toward the thrower.
PLAUSIBLE

Adam and Jamie first met with a professional trap shooting instructor to learn the basics of hitting moving airborne targets. After practicing on clay pigeons, they returned to the workshop, where Jamie re-configured his soda-can launcher to launch paintball grenades. At the shooting range, they were both able to hit the grenades using 12-gauge birdshot rounds.

To better match typical movie scenarios, in which a character might fire a pistol to hit a grenade, they switched to steel dummy grenades and paintball pistols for safety. Each man took a turn shooting while the other was eventually able to score a hit.

For testing live ammunition and explosives, they built a heavily armored bunker on a remote stretch of land. A test on a standard grenade showed that the explosion would occur 5 seconds after the fuse was ignited by the spoon popping off. They set up a shotgun, pistol, and rifle to fire directly at a grenade once its fuse had been ignited. The 12-gauge buckshot round blew it to pieces and extinguished the blasting cap. The .45 pistol round knocked the cap off; it exploded harmlessly. The .308 rifle round delivered enough energy to the grenade to detonate its explosives instantly. Adam and Jamie classified the myth as plausible, but noted that a person would have a better chance of survival by taking cover due to the difficulty of making an accurate shot and the risk of setting off the grenade.
 
I'm also surprised that Ukraine hasn't bought up the world's supply of M53s and MG3s, and their corresponding Anti-Aircraft tripods...

...which might be useful for dealing with those shahed drones...
 
joe6167 said:
I'm also surprised that Ukraine hasn't bought up the world's supply of M53s and MG3s, and their corresponding Anti-Aircraft tripods...

...which might be useful for dealing with those shahed drones...
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They can't stop them with dozens of 20mm and other autocannons. What would drastically less range and no payload offer?
 
It's the range issue.

Better to focus on ground tactics to reduce being spotted and perhaps jamming technologies for larger units.

As for shooting grenades out of the air with a SG...........
 
I can see a shotgun being effective against the once-famous drone with a mounted handgun, or in other words a drone set up by an amateur but against any professionally set up one that can operate almost out of sight- no way. And the trouble is that the technology is spreading fast.

If you have good concealment you might well bring down an ordinary camera drone sent in close to find you, but of course as soon as you do that your position immediately becomes known so run like hell.
 
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I'm talking about when you're sitting in the back of your kamaz truck and a kamikazi drone is coming to bite you in the rear. A guy with a Saiga might have some luck at saving his neck.

Or have you seen how the Ukrainians are having drones creep through forests and into trenches now?

A stream of birdshot on an incoming drone, might accomplish something. Better than dying...

How many videos have we seen of guys shooting at incoming drones (of all types) with AK's etc. Imagine if one of those guys had a shotgun instead?

Ukraine has received/will receive like 82 Gepards. That's not many for such a huge country, and the guys in the trenches certainly do not have their own Flakpanzer Gepard by their side... Gepards have no problem shooting down shaheds, when the shaheds are polite enough to fly in the vicinity of a Gepard, that is...

The MG42/MG3 Anti-Aircraft setup seems more comprehensive than what most other Machine Guns have, and of course, the legendary rate of fire that goes with it.

Here I'm talking about a dedicated AA tripod, or the Lafette with the Anti-Aircraft bar. You've even got TWO variants of Spider-Sight to choose from to help you calculate lead. There's the original MG42 style and the MG3 style (which can also be installed on M53s). And for sure there is PLENTY of that stuff floating around on the milsurp market.

I don't think PKM's or M240s have a comparable set up. Just a simple ground tripod at best.

The MG3 manual, talks about using the MG3 spider sight to engage jet aircraft flying directly overhead at speeds of 900 km/h, or propeller driven aircraft or helicopters flying at 300 km/h. One estimate I found for the max speed for the Shahed drone is 185 km/h.

I've got an anti-aircraft rig just sitting in my living room... I'm sure a hose of 8mm Mauser could give a shahed drone a real bad time...
 
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Belt fed 12 gauge with 00? A cyclic of 500 rpm would put up a pretty decent canopy like small scale flak. Here's a thought, drones have turned trap and clays shooting into a tactical sport.
 
enefgee said:
Belt fed 12 gauge with 00? A cyclic of 500 rpm would put up a pretty decent canopy like small scale flak. Here's a thought, drones have turned trap and clays shooting into a tactical sport.
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why 00? The gap between pellets would be enough to fit multiple drones through at 70 yards, let alone 100.

Bird shot or target load, to achieve good density and have just enough power to puncture a battery pack or a propeller
 
Battlerifleelitist said:
why 00? The gap between pellets would be enough to fit multiple drones through at 70 yards, let alone 100.

Bird shot or target load, to achieve good density and have just enough power to puncture a battery pack or a propeller
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I'd agree, and venture that whatever gets the best follow up is going to take it down. Having shot down UAS with missiles, I never saw one go down to the first blast.
 
You'd need larger shot than trap load to have any chance of being effective. George digweed could break a flash target clay with #5 at 130 yards but the shot was falling onto the targets path. I don't have much experience with drones but the cheap ones the kids have can fly straight into a wall and just bounce off and restabilize

Gnat shooting is gaining in popularity and I'd love to try it
 
geologist said:
It's the range issue.

Better to focus on ground tactics to reduce being spotted and perhaps jamming technologies for larger units.

As for shooting grenades out of the air with a SG...........
Click to expand...

Correct. It's the range issue. The German Gepards have a range of ~2 km and their air-burst 30-35mm rds, can do a number on the larger drones and would be quite effective on the smaller quad-copters even in a swarm attack, if detected. Hard thing is detecting/tracking/killing them, especially the small electric types. These things are very quiet, especially in a combat zone with all sorts of noise being generated. You can hardly hear the little fkrs' when they're overhead about to drop ordnance on your vehicle. Good luck spotting/hearing the small ones before they drop a grenade on you. Newer ones are maneuverable now with FPV guidance until impact. Very hard to stop as the Ukrainians and Russians are learning a deadly lesson. Drone tech has increased rapidly in the Ukraine-Russia war. Good luck shooting them down with a 12Ga shotgun if they're moving.

Future defense is EW_ jamming/ frying with microwaves/ lasers, etc.. A constant battle of offense vs defense, with each side constantly adapting. The Israeli IDF has plenty of battle experience in their almost constant history of wars, incursions, intifadas. etc.. Even their top-of-the-line Merkava IV MBTs have been defeated by various, continuous, attack methods learned by their enemies from combat experiences. They introduced the world's 1st. Active Protection System (Trophy APS which uses radar, auto-ranging, and ironically a shotgun type blast of metal to intercept/destroy incoming RPGs. ATGMs, rockets etc., at a short distance from the tank) defeating these weapons. Still defeatable though. A salvo of RPGs/ATGMs will overwhelm the system as it has a limited mag. capacity. Same as their Iron Dome anti-missile shield, highly effective against small barrages of cheap Hamas rockets, but overwhelmed by a large barrage of rockets. Not cost effective as a Tamir missile costs ~$50,000 USD each vs ~ $200+ for a cheap rocket. That's why they invented the Laser Iron Beam anti-rocket/missile/mortar/ drone system. It may even be seeing combat in the current Israel-Hamas war. ~$2 a shot with an undepleteable magazine, as long as you have electricity. IIRC, its' only a 100kW system now, being up powered.

The new Israeli Merkava Barak MBT could be a game changer. Just introduced/delivered in 2023, it has slew of new high-tech systems on board. Highly classified to prevent enemy intel, but reportedly has an EW suite, advanced Trophy APS, F-35 type helmet (co-invented by Israel) for 360 degree vision, and a possible laser system. All from battle earned experience over the last 5-10 years. Time will tell.
 
Maybe this makes more sense:


besides, the military would never go for a cheap, low tech solution when they could cover vehicles with these. Hook the gun up to a modern aiming system and you're good to go.
 
Big Bad said:
I'm a little disappointed that the only 'combat' use for the shotgun in this thread turns out to be as an anti-drone device, lol.
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And even then, the conversation quickly turned to Electronic Warfare.

I guess the point I was trying to make is, EW is nice and all, but while they're busy working on it, drones are crashing head on into your position. Meanwhile Shotguns are cheap and plentiful. Why not use them, and you know, maybe "not die"?

Maybe it's a stopgap solution, but it's better than dying I guess...
 
Big Bad said:
I can see a shotgun being effective against the once-famous drone with a mounted handgun, or in other words a drone set up by an amateur but against any professionally set up one that can operate almost out of sight- no way. And the trouble is that the technology is spreading fast.

If you have good concealment you might well bring down an ordinary camera drone sent in close to find you, but of course as soon as you do that your position immediately becomes known so run like hell.
Click to expand...

Have you not seen the recent use of off the shelf, and home made with off the shelf parts drones being used in combat? They aren't just used as reconnaissance anymore, they now drop mortars, and grenades. They also strap explosives with shrapnel belts that are used as suicide drones that fly along a trench and drop in on a hole, or person in the trench.

I've seen Russians and Ukrainians engage them with their rifles, sometimes even being successful. A shot gun against any of these smaller drones that require being in decently close range could theoretically be countered by a decent shotgun. Now you aren't doing anything to something flying too high, or at a distance away but at least you would have the possibility of shooting down some of these smaller, closer and hard to escape varieties now being fielded.
 
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