The Whitworth thread

freedomintheskies

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A few weeks ago, I was researching black powder competition and matches from the time when Bisley was Wimbledon and the Creedmoore matches were still 30 years in the future. It was right around the time when our friends in the south were embroiled in arguably their most defining moment; The American Civil War.

Due to the Naval blockade of the southern ports by the US forces, the Confederate States were finding it difficult to conduct trade. Even when the Captains and crews of ships willing to run the blockade made it through, there was never enough to even come close to matching the industrial output of the northern states. England was more than happy to supply guns and materiel of war to both sides during this conflict and because of the arms shortages experienced by the Confederates, they brought in thousands upon thousands of Enfield muskets. Another little gem of that era was the Whitworth .451 caliber rifle with its hexagonal bore and uncanny accuracy, especially at long ranges.

The Confederate soldiers who given these arms were hand picked from units of Sharp Shooters, who would compete against one another for top shot. These men would then go up against the top shots from their Divisions or States and out of the numerous candidates, only a few individuals would be presented with a Whitworth. Unlike their Sharp Shooter units who operated as flank guards for an army engaged in battle. They would provide harassing fire leading up to the main battle and cover fire during retreats. It should be stressed though that they operated as units on the field of battle and they were selected for their ability to shoot. This distinction also came with perks. The Sharp Shooters would not have to do sentry and picket, or other less desirable duties. Men who carried Whitworth rifles were given an almost unheard of freedom to roam the battlefield and engage targets of their choosing- Officers, Senior NCO's, mounted troops and artillery units. The Whitworth rifles were so effective that entire artillery batteries would turn their guns on the suspected position of a Whitworth soldier; That or die, as the Sharp Shooter would pick off the entire crew of each gun. There is even a painting of a US artilleryman looking over his shoulder while ramming home a ball. His dead comrades sprawled on the ground around him. Presumably the victims of a Whitworth carrying Sharp Shooter.

The most famous act of sniping during the Civil War also involved a Whitworth rifle. It took place on May 9, 1864, at the Battle of Spotsylvania Court House. Accounts vary as to the distance from which the shot was taken, with the range being put anywhere from 500 to 1000 yards. The following transcript is copied from the website of American Civil War History.Union General John Sedgwick was directing the placement of his artillery in preparation for the coming battle when his position came under fire from a Confederate sniper. The unique shape of the Whitworth bullets caused them to make a very distinctive whistling sound when they passed through the air; a sound that was, by then, feared in the Union ranks. Following is an account of what happened next, from Sedgwick's Chief-of-Staff:
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"As the bullets whistled by, some of the men dodged. The general said laughingly, 'What! what! men, dodging this way for single bullets! What will you do when they open fire along the whole line? I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.' A few seconds after, a man who had been separated from his regiment passed directly in front of the general, and at the same moment a sharp-shooter's bullet passed with a long shrill whistle very close, and the soldier, who was then just in front of the general, dodged to the ground. The general touched him gently with his foot, and said, 'Why, my man, I am ashamed of you, dodging that way,' and repeated the remark, 'They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.' The man rose and saluted and said good-naturedly, 'General, I dodged a shell once, and if I hadn't, it would have taken my head off. I believe in dodging.' The general laughed and replied, 'All right, my man; go to your place.'
For a third time the same shrill whistle, closing with a dull, heavy stroke, interrupted our talk; when, as I was about to resume, the general's face turned slowly to me, the blood spurting from his left cheek under the eye in a steady stream. He fell in my direction; I was so close to him that my effort to support him failed, and I fell with him."
Thus, General Sedgwick became the highest ranking Union officer to die in battle (above). When General Ulysses S. Grant received the news, he was so shocked that, in total disbelief, he repeatedly asked those around him, "Is he really dead?"

Deservedly, much has been written on the subject of the Whitworth. My goal is to provide links and information in a comprehensive thread and I encourage others to contribute their own stories, experiences and links to articles on this amazing rifle that was way ahead of it's time and in some aspects, is still superior to today's rifles.

I'm certainly no expert on Whitworth rifles, so if I've written or quoted something which is not fact, rest assured it is not intentional. The intent of this thread is to create a living document to help others in their quest for everything Whitworth.


Here is a list of links on the topic:

http://www.americancivilwarstory.com/whitworth-rifle.html

https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/equipment/

https://plus.google.com/+ResearchPress

http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-4822.html

http://gunmakerhistory.########.ca/2015/11/loading-whitworth-patent-rifle.html

Suppliers of parts, accessories et al:

https://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=92728

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/MUZZLE_LOADING_.html

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/

https://www.buffaloarms.com/

https://dixiegunworks.com/

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8084


Right out of the box- The Pedersoli version of a Whitworth rifled musket. The craftsmanship on this example is excellent! Fit and finish is superb.

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First up was a quick inspection on the rifle, followed by a detailed strip, cleaning and reassembly.

This is perhaps the most noticeably unique feature of the Whitworth; It's .451" hexagonal bore which is a full 36 inches in length.
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A detailed look at the lock plate. The makers mark and crown are nicely done and the case hardened finish shows nice colours.
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Looks nice. I have a Parker-Hale version from 1986, serial #8XX. In fact, both the P-H and this are not actually replicas of any military Whitworth, but are replications of the three-band Volunteer military match rifle. Whitworth rifles were never muskets of any kind. Those that went to the CSA were ALL two-band versions of B grade rifles - not because they were seconds, but because they lacked some of the niceties of the A Grade guns. DeWitt Bailey is of the opinion, so far, than no more than around 120 ever got to the CSA, all prefixed C###.

If you are interested in shooting hexagonal bullets that actually WORK, rather than hexagonal-ish bullets that don't, get in touch with the Polisar Brothers in Albuquerque NM about their 500gr hydraulically-swaged bullets, just like those made in Manchester. I notice our friend Balasz Németh over on his Youtube channel, capandball, shooting his at 50 and 100m. This, of course, is like driving your Ferrari to the corner store. These things live at 900 yards and out to 1200 yards with a 90gr load and decent sights.

BTW, if you want to waste a lot of money on a bullet mould, treat yourself to the Dyson three-piece device. I gave up on mine after tossing nine out of ten bullets made with it. On the other hand, the Lyman 535gr multi-groove flat-nose bullet made with about 99% lead is plenty good enough to work for most people. The KITA from that 90gr of 3Fg exploding behind it makes it hexagonal, just like the real thing. When the CSA sharpshooters ran out of the proper bullets, that is what they used.

Like most of us do.

Enjoy your shooting!

tac
 
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tac,
I looked into getting a bullet swage tool. THey are available for $139.00 US from Dixie gun works (but use a .50 cal bullet). I figured I would wait until I can determine if my cast bullets using the Pedersoli mold and the Lyman Parker Hale mold will obturate when fired. I'll report back with my findings. More than a few have said that if soft lead is used, they will obturate quite nicely, so the swage tool may not be required.
Yes, I watched some of the videos from CapandBall. very informative. BritishMuzzleLoaders has a great video on the Parker Hale Volunteer rifle and he has a great looking range box that is both well thought out and practical. I decided that since I had some extra time on my hands while waiting for bits and pieces of Whitworth related stuff to arrive I'd make one of my own and it is loosely based on BML's. I had a box just waiting for the right project, and it forms the core of the project. The shelves and boxes were added and the top was reconfigured into a split front. The areas that the rifle rests on, brackets for the powder funnel, range rod, ball starter, etc; still need to be installed.
Although it still needs stain, spar varnish and a hole for the hammer cut in the rifle rest, I'll post a few pix...

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Looks great, Sir! Congratulations. Making that here in yUK might cost about the same as having it done by the Queen's cabinet-maker, on account of the price of wood, so although I like it a lot, and I've told Rob as much, I'll have to content myself looking at his and yours.

Apropos whether or not the bullet made of soft lead will obdurate, your doubts are totally unfounded. If you email me, I'll send you a pic of one such bullet made from the Lyman cylindro-conoidal mould that should set your mind at rest. It worked for all those Confederate shooters - so why not for you? Note that the Whitworth likes a good stiff charge - 80 - 90 of FFFg or similar, and a couple of shiny side down cardboard wads. The type of stuff that is used to stiffen the collars and front of a new shirt in the packaging is the stuff, although some shooters use grease. cookies.

If you get some bullets from Joe Polisar, you won't have to wonder whether or not they shoot. My old gun with an 80gr load of Swiss put five bullets into just over 1.5" at 100m.

Best

tac
 
Looks great, Sir! Congratulations. Making that here in yUK might cost about the same as having it done by the Queen's cabinet-maker, on account of the price of wood, so although I like it a lot, and I've told Rob as much, I'll have to content myself looking at his and yours.

Apropos whether or not the bullet made of soft lead will obdurate, your doubts are totally unfounded. If you email me, I'll send you a pic of one such bullet made from the Lyman cylindro-conoidal mould that should set your mind at rest. It worked for all those Confederate shooters - so why not for you? Note that the Whitworth likes a good stiff charge - 80 - 90 of FFFg or similar, and a couple of shiny side down cardboard wads. The type of stuff that is used to stiffen the collars and front of a new shirt in the packaging is the stuff, although some shooters use grease. cookies.

If you get some bullets from Joe Polisar, you won't have to wonder whether or not they shoot. My old gun with an 80gr load of Swiss put five bullets into just over 1.5" at 100m.

Best

tac


tac,

Thanks for the compliment and the great advise.
From the looking around the internet at what others were doing, I had purchased a Pedersoli mold (USA 308-451) 520gr .451" mold and a Lyman 457-121 PH 475 grain mold. I've only tried the Pedersoli mold thus far, and the results were quite nice A light spray of graphite keeps the mold from hanging on to the newly cast bullet.
Regarding wads and cards, I used some 1/2" thick hexagonal felt wads soaked in a beeswax/paraffin/olive oil sauce and they firmed up nicely when cooled. Hexagonal cards were made from beer coaster material and punched with a great little punch made by Peter Dyson in the U.K. (see links in the first post). They are also a good source for 8mmx 1.25 nipples for the Pedersoli made rifle.
Any thoughts on using Pyrodex FFG equivalent powder? Would you weigh the charges or use a volumetric measure?
 
Sorry, I don't use Pyrodex in any of my replica rifles. However, if you look in the Hodgdon manual you'll see that Pyrodex RS/Select loads about 10% less by WEIGHT than a BP load, so the 80gr BP load will be 72gr of the sub.

However, I've never tried it, and bearing in mind that Swiss black is substantially more 'active' than similar granulation of GO-EX, I'd be tempted to stay with the real thing and experiment with them. I DO shoot Pyrodex/T7 in my revolver, and can easily tell the difference between the two, however shooting a LOT of a sub is outside my experience.

Remember that I actually live in UK, and have known Mr Dyson Snr and Jnr over the last thirty-something years, so I have the hexagonal Dyson wadcutter, BTW, as well as one of his platinum nipples. Note that the 'real deal' has a thin copper washer - also getable from Mr D - which makes changing out the nipple or taking it out for a good clean a lot easier, helped with a minute amount of Coppaslip grease, too.

tac
 
Thanks for the interesting thread. I've seen one of these rifles before, but don't think I've ever seen a bullet for them. Is there any chance that either of you could post a picture?

thanks,

Chris.
 
Tac,
I'd love to use black powder, but it is almost impossible to find here in Prince Edward Island. Next time I come across some, I'll be sure to stock up. I was looking at Mr Dysons's platinum nipples (that just sounds wrong) and was wondering how long the original will last.

Gunlaker,
I will take a pic of the Lyman bullet once I receive the mold later today and of the Pedersoli bullet. They are just big conical bullets, but yes, you can buy the swaged hexagonal bullets in the US. I'll hold off on those for a bit. I've spent way too much in the last couple weeks. ;)
In the meantime, here is a generic photo, shamelessly robbed from elsewhere on the internet.
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Sorry, I don't use Pyrodex in any of my replica rifles. However, if you look in the Hodgdon manual you'll see that Pyrodex RS/Select loads about 10% less by WEIGHT than a BP load, so the 80gr BP load will be 72gr of the sub.

However, I've never tried it, and bearing in mind that Swiss black is substantially more 'active' than similar granulation of GO-EX, I'd be tempted to stay with the real thing and experiment with them. I DO shoot Pyrodex/T7 in my revolver, and can easily tell the difference between the two, however shooting a LOT of a sub is outside my experience.

Remember that I actually live in UK, and have known Mr Dyson Snr and Jnr over the last thirty-something years, so I have the hexagonal Dyson wadcutter, BTW, as well as one of his platinum nipples. Note that the 'real deal' has a thin copper washer - also getable from Mr D - which makes changing out the nipple or taking it out for a good clean a lot easier, helped with a minute amount of Coppaslip grease, too.

tac
 
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If anybody wants to see a bumped-up cylindro-conoidal bullet, please PM me for my email. My PCs are Japanese OS and are not compatible with many of the Western OS Windows-derived image stores, so I can't use them to pick out an image and post it here - or most other places.

Thanks.

tac

BTW - the Dyson platinum nipples is only lined, it is not totally made of the stuff else it would cost a thousand dollars or more. And the orginals made by Parker-Hale were good for three or four hundred shots - in my experience, that is - being made of some kind of phosphor-bronze that lasted forever-ish. I have no idea of the longevity of the Pedersoli product, and cannot comment by offering any kind of opinion. Remember that this rifle has a 'patent' or 'high-pressure reduced volume' breech, and will burn nipples away at a very high rate due to the combination of high pressure and heat. The first sign will be a self-cocking ####, accompanied by an amazing amount of hot gas.

ALWAYS wear eye protection!
 
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@freedomintheskies - the far left bullet, made by Joe and Steve Polisar, is THE definitive bullets for the .451 Whitworth. They first developed a 600gr bullet that I shot a lot of, even having them sent from NM to UK [thanks, Joe and Steve!].

They have a VERY particular loading régime that they have derived from many years of Whitworth shooting - even to the extent of taking a buff with a single shot some years ago. They wrote this up in 'Muzzle blasts' as I recall.

It's a PITA to do as they recommend, but the results speak for themselves, even now they have reduced the bullet weight to what you see. It's pretty cool to think that the 538gr bullet is regarded as the 'light bullet'!

tac
 
So one of the questions I had when buying this rifle was- "What's in the box?". Well, there was a nice new rifle, A CD/DVD of some Pedersoli products and some how to's and an owners' manual. Mine had a powder funnel and bullet mold, but that was additional purchases.

When I stripped the rifle for initial cleaning I took some pix, so here they are. I could not get the screw out of the side of the bolster (and didn't try all that hard either) so I could not get the breech plug out. It's not something that the manufacturer wants you to do anyway.

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Once you remove the lock, the cnc machining of the stock can be easily seen. The all major and fitted parts of the rifle are all serialized together as well.
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A view of the breech plug.
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Not sure why, but here is another view of the breech plug.
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A little plumbers tape on the nipple before installing it will go a long way to getting it out when it's all covered in black powder residue.
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In the meantime, I got the range box all stained and spar varnish applied...
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Homemade black powder foaming cleaner. equal parts Isopropyl alcohol, hydrogen peroxide and Murphys wood soap
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Making .451 hex over powder wads from .50 cal ones with the punch from Peter Dyson.
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I tell folks that I sit watching TV and trimming the hex shape out of round wads.

Use a wooden or rubber mallet - it's kinder to the wad cutter than the hardened steel hammer face.

tac
 
I got an opportunity to take the Whitty out to the range today. It was about 6 degrees C and the wind was blowing at 18mph gusting to 24mph. Shooter spirits were high.

I had a friend who has a Youtube channel do some video work of the event and will post a link when he gets it all processed. Until then, I have a couple stills.
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I fired a total of 6 shots today and on the 7th, I could not get the main powder charge to ignite. No idea why, other than I don't think the powder was getting into the bolster, so the cap was not able to light the powder charge. perhaps Goex will be better than Pyrodex. I dunno.
There was only one shot where there was no perceptible hang fire. The first shot took 2 caps to set off and the others were a bit slower than the best, which was as close to a centerfire round as I could hope for. All in all- I'm pretty damned stoked! Yes, it was far from perfect, but then I don't have any black powder/ muzzle loader experience either. Maybe tomorrow will be nice and I can get out again.

And a video of the first shot compliments of Shawn at 314299 Shooting Channel. Please be sure to check out his videos!
 
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Coupla things instantly come to mind.

1. You are using some type of Pyrodex. It looks like a squeakpip load, too.

2. You are using two kinds of wad - that confuses me.

Because you are shooting a cylindrical bullet in a hexagonal bore, you will really need to up the charge to a minimum of 70gr of 3Fg - I habitually shoot with 90gr. At longer ranges, out to 1200 yards, other people with fancy sights shoot 95 - 100 gr.

Using BP, the Polisar brothers not only use the drop tube, as you do, but also bang the butt on the heel or a piece of carpet to settle the charge in the reduced volume breech - making certain that the charge is up against the flashhole.

They also recommend that the charge is compressed by exerting a downward load of about 40 pounds. Don't laff, but I started off doing this with a set of bathroom scales, however, you pretty soon get the 'feel', and can rid yourself of the guffaw-making device.

The ONLY musket caps to use are RWS brand. Nothing else comes near in effectiveness. Over here in Yoorup, nobody uses anything else either, so they can't be bad.

I know that you have difficulty in getting the real BP, but try shooting your Pyrodex RS - it IS RS, right? - with a load of at least 75gr, and see how you get on. Come back to 50m and use a rest like Balasz is doing, shoot five and then go up or down and see what happens then. I note with interest that HIS loads are also squickpeeps.

Good luck.

tac

PS - ANY GOEX is better than ANY substitute - not just MY opinion, Sir.

PPS - You can also tell me to shut up.
 
Hi Tac,
Thanks for the replies. Your input is appreciated. It's obvious that I know squat about black powder shooting, so everything I have done is an emulation of what I've seen others doing (usually with good luck), but It's only good if it all works together- Right?

Shopping list:
Black powder
RWS musket caps
Check...

Regarding the black powder charge. The traditions powder measure I have shows that I have a load of say 60 gr. of powder, but when it is weighed, it is only about 40 grains. Do this with smokeless and you'll be sprouting little wings, or picking up your new trident.
Which method should I use? I really don't want to blow myself up.

Wads: I was using a dry wafer type wad over the powder followed by the 1/2" lubed felt wad. Similar to that BritishMuzzleLoaders was using with his PH Volunteer rifle. The theory was; the thin wafer would keep the powder from getting contaminated by the lube.

Powdering: Yes, I remember seeing something about tapping the butt to distribute the powder. I will give it a try. The compression of the powder also makes sense.

Regarding sights; what type of sights are you seeing others use? The factory ramp with V notch and front post & bead is just not going to work...

Again- Keep the comments coming.
 
Hi, I have Parker Hale Whitworth 3 band rifle. I use the new mould from Pedersoli with pure lead and have had good results.

I bought my Whitworth used but new in box never fired and right on the first shot it started shredding the CCI 4 wing copper caps, no excessive gas or self cocking hammer though, has this been other peoples experience?

Where can one get RWS musket caps in Canada?
 
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