Thumb Safety on M&p

[Rick]

The use of positive safeties is not the issue of concern.

If it is not a concern, then that should be the end of the #####ing and criticism of having a manual safety on a firearm, such as on an M&P pistol.

The issue first and foremost is the belief that magazine disconnects/disco is in fact a safety device. The anecdotal instances of officer survival do not directly link the positive outcomes to the disco itself. Other factors were and are involved which influence the situation.

Let's recap briefly here. You attribute the member's death to a magazine disconnect in your earlier post - an anecdotal instance where I suspect you are not party to the investigation that followed, and where the root cause was determined by the Force to be a member who was left side strong armed with a handgun with right side strong controls.

And then, without missing a beat, you dismiss numerous recorded instances of a magazine safety saving an officer from being shot as being "anecdotal" and criticize those instances as not being directly related to the positive income in those instances. Well, I suppose that by sheer chance if there had been no magazine disconnect when the bad guy pulled the trigger on the officer's weapon, the round that would have been in the chamber would have misfired. Or maybe he would have missed while standing a few inches away from the officer. But in my books, possibilities like that are hardly credible alternative reasons for why those officers survived.

To rest full faith that a disco is a life saver would be ignoring the obvious.

Can I ask if you've ever been through Depot, the JI, some other police academy, the military's CP Operator course, or any other similar military or police training? Or are you a civilian all the way?

I don't know of ANY training within a police agency or Canada's military that teaches students to rely fully on a magazine disconnect, manual safety, or any other safety device. And if you had ever been through any of those courses you would not suggest that is what is done. More to the point, the fact you suggest police/military are trained to place "full faith" on a magazine disconnect - or any other safety feature - is both erroneous and misleading.

The fact that a disabled firearm due to mag ejection is useless for all involved proves it is of as much value to the good guy as it is to the bad guy. If this were a math equation the answer would be =equal. Which means there is no gain or benefit.

Most people, on the verge of losing control of their weapon - believe it or not there is always somebody tougher than you out there - would prefer to take their chances with surviving a beating rather than one to the head from their own firearm.

Most people who do carry weapons for a living rather than theorizing, would prefer that few extra seconds to go to one of their weapons while the bad guy tries to figure out why the handgun isn't firing. Or to have their partner engage the bad guy with HIS weapon - before they are shot, not after. As far as that goes, their partner probably prefers to have to deal with a bad guy armed with your non-functioning handgun, rather than with a fully functional point and shoot device. And in many of the recorded cases where a magazine disconnect has saved an officer's life, that is exactly what has happened: the officer had an opportunity to use another weapon in that few seconds, or his partner took out the bad guy.

It isn't theory and it isn't a math equation with a null outcome - it is a repeatedly recorded fact.

Safety devices are designed to prevent inadvertent discharges due to loss of control or foreign objects.

Perhaps in your world. In most other peoples' world, it includes a trigger being pressed by a finger when it shouldn't be.

Furthermore, the intended purpose of the disco is a liability by design.

You should be trying to make that argument to police officers who are alive today because of that device, not to us. If you can prove it to them, then I guess I'll buy in.

With the potential for such dire consequences, how or why anyone would believe that the possibility for this device to save ones life outweighs the very real possibility of this device to cost one their life is foolish. Cases of such events are hardly common place or compelling enough to warrant the use of magazine disconnects as a benefit. They are an answer to a question that has never been asked.

Bull.

Ayoob and at least one other writer have investigated this in the past, numerous times. No doubt at least in part because of the hysteria some display about magazine disconnects, as well as the usual requirement to write a column once a month. Illinois and other agencies who armed their police with magazine equipped weapons looked at it as well.

I have yet to see any published article or related review that concluded that as many or nearly as many police lost their lives due to a magazine disconnect as those who were saved by it. In fact, it wasn't even close. The numbers overwhelmingly favoured police who were saved by the device over those who were shot because of it. Ayoob concluded his one article by saying that the danger was primarily in the mind of chairborne commandos who had no training or service in a force armed with a handgun with a magazine disconnect, and he doubted any of them could give specific instances of an event where an officer was shot due to a magazine disconnect. I suspect he was accurate in that conclusion.

Your comment regarding my seatbelt analogy has missed the point. Again, you are correct, seatbelts save lives when someone screws up.

And you - deliberately I expect - miss the point that we haven't invented the perfect human being yet who will never make a safety error, nor the perfect cop who can never be disarmed, no matter how big or how many his assailants.

Again, the beauty of it is that if you actually do carry a handgun for self defense rather than simply theorizing about it, you have ample handguns out there to choose from which do not have a magazine disconnect. Therefore, you can rest easy.

Why are you so passionate about the perceived ills of a magazine disconnect - do you actually know a police officer or soldier who was injured or killed because of one?

 

[TDC]

Rick,
Let me clarify my points before you read what you want from them. The disco is not a safety device, it is for most civilian shooters a waste of time and promotes ignorant handling skills. As for the LE/MIL communities, the disco isn't common place and has the ability to cause deaths as it does to prevent them.

The cases where the disco has saved lives although good news are not empirical evidence that supports their use. I've read a few stories of officers being saved by their flashlight taking a bullet, or their badge stopping a bullet. Does this mean we should issue Surefire lights and demand officers wear their badge over their heart? Hardly. I don't believe any dept. promotes or enforces total reliability on its equipment. However, relying on level 3 holsters, the disco, or your armor on any level is foolish. To believe that such pieces of equipment are as valuable or more valuable than training is plain stupid. Equipment compliments ones training, it does not replace it. As much as armor has saved many lives. I'm positive all those who have survived would prefer to have not been shot in the first place. Equipment is insurance.

A beating over getting shot although not great is a marginally better alternative. Then again, the scumbag could beat you down, take the magazine and shoot you anyway. The time or advantage that the disco could offer does not outweigh the negative result when one draws their pistol under control expects it to fire and it does not. A situation where lethal force could have ended the threat has just turned into an officer shooting/stabbing or a hands on fight. Seeing how the disco does not guarantee an inoperative firearm or the survival of the officer I don't believe its a benefit. The advent of a partner, supplemental tools/weapons does not validate the use of a disco. Partners and/or additional tools/weapons are also not guaranteed to be available or reliable.

Your point about safety devices illustrates exactly why manual/positive safeties are next to useless. You indicate that "In most other peoples' world, it includes a trigger being pressed by a finger when it shouldn't be." Depressing the trigger without the conscious thought of where the pistol is pointed and without the conscious decision to shoot is called a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. If an individual is dumb enough to have an ND by failing to follow the fundamental rules of firearms handling. Then the addition of a manual safety would prevent nothing. Those who don't possess the necessary skills to operate their firearms safely are usually the ones who ignore the manual/positive safety devices as well. By default, all Nd's are a result of ignorant handling of a loaded firearm with inoperative safeties or the safeties disengaged.

My "passion" against the disco is due in part to the ever constant reliance on hardware being promoted to solve a software problem. All the gear in the world won't make a difference if the training to use the gear and survive the situation aren't present.

A side note on Mr. Ayoob. He is a part time officer of a very small dept that covers 27 square miles of New Hampshire. I know he has attended fallen officer charity shoots drunk, and isn't regarded as the "expert" the gun rags promote him to be.

TDC

 

[Westicle]

As for the LE/MIL communities, the disco isn't common place and has the ability to cause deaths as it does to prevent them.

WOW... lets see, canada has been usingthe browning hipower WITH magazine disconnect since 1939'ish.... right up until this day..... so for 70 years our nations armed forces have used a pistol with magazine disconect.

Up until glock showed up S&W was #1 in law enforcement sales of semi automatic pistols since the model 59 was introduced.... 95% of all S&W pistols sold to law enforcement are sold with magazine disconnect.

other then that your points and your "facts" are all full of s**t.... seriously, reading your "dribble" makes people stupider.

 

[Rick]

Rick,
Let me clarify my points before you read what you want from them. The disco is not a safety device, it is for most civilian shooters a waste of time and promotes ignorant handling skills.

That is your opinion. Mine is that it is a safety device. For the police forces who use firearms with a disconnect it is a safety device. It might well be a waste of time for civilians - but then so is participation in any shooting event based on defensive encounters because, of course, we can't legally carry here anyways. In fact, unless you happen to be a police officer or a CF member employed in JTF2, CSOR, CP Operator, etc... this whole conversation is a waste of time on your part because you're just a civilian shooter relegated to an approved handgun range.

"Promotes ignorant handling skills"??? Whatever.

What police force or equivilent CF handgun training did you say you had completed again? I missed that part.

As for the LE/MIL communities, the disco isn't common place and has the ability to cause deaths as it does to prevent them.

So you say. The fact remains a significant number of agencies still specify a magazine disconnect. The fact also remains that so far, magazine disconnects have saved more officers' lives than have been lost because of it. Your logic reminds me of those who condemn seatbelts and their use because they can cause death in some accidents.

The cases where the disco has saved lives although good news are not empirical evidence that supports their use. I've read a few stories of officers being saved by their flashlight taking a bullet, or their badge stopping a bullet.

???? Departments have kept records of instances, year in and year out, where an officer dropped his magazine during a losing battle to disable his firearm - but that isn't good enough to be empirical evidence for you. Ummm, whatever.

You then move on to equating the deliberate use of the mag disconnect by an officer under attack with a bullet striking an officer's flashlight or badge. I suppose the officer cleverly saw the bullet coming and deliberately moved the flashlight or badge into the path of the bullet?

One is a deliberate, conscious, trained action. Your examples are little more than pure chance. There is a considerable difference between the two, and I have a hard time believing you don't know there is.

I don't believe any dept. promotes or enforces total reliability on its equipment. However, relying on level 3 holsters, the disco, or your armor on any level is foolish.

I don't know of any which do, and I continue to fail to see why you continue to suggest they do.. Once again... which police force or similar CF training course did you complete regarding use of force training pertaining to handguns?

The time or advantage that the disco could offer does not outweigh the negative result when one draws their pistol under control expects it to fire and it does not.

Your insinuations are getting circuitous. If you have any specific information that shows more police are injured because of a magazine disconnect instead of saved by it, please be good enough to present it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, might have, etc is all very well, but it is right up there with warnings that having a firearm in the house is more likely to end up causing you harm than saving you.

Now, which police force or CF unit were you with where members found themselves drawing their firearm and finding it would not fire because of the magazine disconnect?

Seeing how the disco does not guarantee an inoperative firearm or the survival of the officer I don't believe its a benefit.

Based on your extensive experience within a police force or military unit equipped with so equipped handguns? And what's the big deal about a "guarantee" - do handguns without magazine disconnects come with some kind of a guarantee? There's no such thing for any weapon.

You might not think it is a big deal. But I don't need a "guarantee" - I'd be quite happy to take my chances with a bad guy armed with an inoperable handgun, rather than having to survive the round he puts into my head, thanks.

The advent of a partner, supplemental tools/weapons does not validate the use of a disco. Partners and/or additional tools/weapons are also not guaranteed to be available or reliable.

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Your point about safety devices illustrates exactly why manual/positive safeties are next to useless.

We will have to disagree on that part. BTW, do you strip the manual safeties out of all your rifles and shotguns as well? After all, an uber trained individual such as you presumably are who ALWAYS has full control of his firearm not only doesn't accidentally press a trigger but also doesn't drop it. Which would seem to indicate no safety is required or desired to deal with the possible discharge of that firearm if it were dropped by some ham fisted lout.

You indicate that "In most other peoples' world, it includes a trigger being pressed by a finger when it shouldn't be." Depressing the trigger without the conscious thought of where the pistol is pointed and without the conscious decision to shoot is called a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

It's also called "murder" when it is a bad guy pulling a trigger that isn't locked by a safety. Now maybe he knows that not all pistols are like Glocks and some have safeties and which lever is the safety - and maybe he doesn't.

I also kind of like the thought that if somebody accidentally pulls a trigger when they shouldn't, that there's one more level of safety there to hopefully advert a tragedy. For perfect people, of course, no such device is necessary.

If an individual is dumb enough to have an ND by failing to follow the fundamental rules of firearms handling. Then the addition of a manual safety would prevent nothing.

So all those who would accidentally pull a trigger would ALWAYS have also failed to set a manual safety. Meh.... I don't think so.

My "passion" against the disco is due in part to the ever constant reliance on hardware being promoted to solve a software problem.

What police service or military unit did you say you were with where you underwent use of force training with handguns again? Rather curious as to who you were with when you noticed this particular "software"problem.

A side note on Mr. Ayoob. He is a part time officer of a very small dept that covers 27 square miles of New Hampshire. I know he has attended fallen officer charity shoots drunk, and isn't regarded as the "expert" the gun rags promote him to be.

And you know he was drunk because you were also invited and actually saw this, correct?

And I know the police force he has been serving in for about 30 years is very small - just how big was the one you served in while garnering your opposing expertise, and how long did you serve in it?

I'm not a particular fan of Ayoob's one way or the other. However, if you're prepared to say the records of instances he collected from agencies like the ISP are nothing but lies and BS, by all means come right out and say so. I do note that, so far, unlike Ayoob who comes up with specifics to support what he wrote, you haven't pointed to any agency which has experienced all these deaths you warn about. How about something simple - like how many CF members have died because of the magazine disconnect in the BHP for example?

I also note that, whatever you think of Ayoob, his knowledge on police use of force is sufficient to have him admitted as an expert witness on police use of force and shooting dynamics just about anywhere he goes. I suspect that whatever your name is, we wouldn't recognize it out in the real world and you almost certainly aren't accepted as an expert witness on use of force and shooting dynamics.

And... I suspect he has personally interviewed and debriefed more police and military personnel who have actually used their handguns in gunfights than you have. Probably more in one month than you in your entire life, in fact. So while I don't think Ayoob is perfect - far from it in fact - I think I'll place a lot more credence on what he's come up with after talking to all those officers than what you're theorizing from your armchair.

 

[Westicle]

ayoob also will testify in any case where he trained the CCW holder.... and the ccw holder had to use the pistol in a legal defensive matter.

Firearms Academy of Seattle hosts ayoob a lot and I met marty and his wife gila once, nice people.

the other thing is the criminal can't fire the gun.... drops weapon on ground and runs away, officer retrives weapon, reloads from his belt and his weapon is now back in service, or if officer gets control of his weapon from criminal, same scenario.

the magazine safety only disables the weapon as long as the mag is out.... as soon as the officer reloads it is back in service.

 

[Westicle]

 

[marlin58]

huh?

why would you want a thumb safety? they have a internal safety that works perfect and makes this gun the easiset,fastest to use....you probably want to look at single actions

 

[ian_in_vic]

Apparently they are offering thumb safeties on the 40 now, I can't figure out why (not using a handgun outside of the range) but I guess there is a demand - to each his own.

 

[Canuck44]

Apparently they are offering thumb safeties on the 40 now, I can't figure out why (not using a handgun outside of the range) but I guess there is a demand - to each his own.

The demand I think comes primarily from shooters in the US who were brought on the 1911 and are used to carrying "cocked and locked". That and I suspect there are LEO departments that may wish to have it installed.

The need for same eludes me but if there is a market I am sure S&W will want to fill it.

Take Care

Bob