Titegroup load/bullet for 38/357 lever rifle

misterzr

misterzr

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Looking to get some ideas on a load for 38/357 lever rifle. I will be using powder coated lead bullets and have several different molds to choose from.

130 gr - flat nosed
147 gr - flat nosed
130 gr - round nosed
158 gr - round nosed
158 gr - semi wadcutter

Looking for suggestions on bullet type and starting point for load with Titegroup
 
I think I used 3.5gr. Titegroup for 158gr LSWC for 38 spl.

I'll confirm with my notes tonight, but it was a good load, great for CAS.
 
First off if it's a model 1892 rifle then forget about the semi wadcutter. It'll jam too easily. I suspect the flat nose bullets might do the same depending on how big the flat is. I know this as I've tried a bunch of options through my Rossi 92 and found this stuff out the hard way.

The 158gn round nose might or might not work. If it has a proper ogive shape then it'll be OK. If it's got the fat round nose look of the 158gn sold by the Bullet Barn then it'll jam again.

If you're using a Marlin it may not be as bad. I've never reloaded for a Marlin 1894 so I can't say which work and which are problems.

For my own shooting I run the 130gn LRNFP sold by the Bullet Barn through Rusty Wood Trading. You can go to either of their web sites and see the shape of them.

From the Lee lineup options that would work are the 358-125-RF and the 358-15-1R. From my experience with the 1892 style action I would not trust any of the other shapes from Lee to cycle smoothly when running the rifle at speed.

Again from my experience with the Rossi 92 you'll want to limit the cases to the .357Mag length only. It'll run .38Spl length cases but you'll get more and more "stickup" jams as you work the lever at higher cycle speeds. I also found that it works best when the cases have a pretty firm taper crimp so there's not a lot of case mouth sticking out to catch on the chamber mouth.

On the other hand if you're slow and methodical in cycling the lever almost anything out there will work in either length of casing. .38's with SWC bullets that are beyond hopeless if I try to run them at cowboy action cycle speeds work fine if I use a slower and more deliberate cycle speed of the lever and give it a 1/4 second pause at the fully forward point.

Your choice.

For powder loads it's totally up to you again. Obviously most of my loads are on the lighter side for my cowboy shooting. I run 4.0gns of Titegroup behind my 130gn cast bullets. That's a proper load for .38Spl but it's not even on the books for a .357Mag load. Still, the rifle is happily accurate with such a load even if it drops fast once you reach out past 50 yards. I've also shot it with full on loads of H110 behind a 158gn JHP and again it did just fine reaching out to 200 yards within the limitations of the regular sights. So load wise the Rossi 92 is pretty tolerant of a wide range in muzzle velocity while still spinning the bullets in a stable manner.

You might also want to flesh out your post with more details. Such as which rifle you have and which molds you have. Otherwise you're only going to get general answers like mine.
 
I use a Rossi 92 and have never had a single jam using semi-wadcutters in 38 spl. cases. That's over a thousand rounds. Maybe there's something wrong with your gun? Riser not pushing the shell high enough or something?
 
It's not just me. All the folks I've seen that use Rossi's or actual Winchester 92's in cowboy action run into the same issue as they progress and their lever cycling speed improves. And that's about 8 or 10 of us in the group I shoot with. It's also a common reason why many of the folks with Uberti 1873's switched from Rossi 92's to the Ubertis. That accounts for another 4 folks that I can think of at the moment.

I actually started out using .38 cases and SWC bullets just like you because I had a bucket full of both. And at first it was just fine. Hardly ever jammed. But within 6 months of matches and practicing I'd got to where I was encountering jams about 3 times out of 10 rounds. It wasn't the ammo. I'd just gotten that fast at cycling the lever. Until I got that fast they fed into the chamber like a fresh caught fish on a wet cutting board. And they still would if I cycled the lever a touch slower.

I switched to the .357 cases and the 130gn round nose flat point bullets sold by Bullet Barn (obviously it does not need to be THEIR bullet. Just the same general nose shape with the small flat point) and the problems went away. They came back a couple of years later as I got even faster. The fix this time was to apply the strong taper crimp so the ogive of the bullet nose is extended a little along the side of the casing and the rounds slip in with even less resistance. Otherwise I could look in the ejection port and see where the sharp lip of the cartridge was jamming on the edge of the mouth.

The chamber mouth is already flared out as much as I dare. I can't go any farther or I risk losing the support of the casing side walls along the lower edge ramp I've formed in the chamber mouth.
 
Interesting. I thought I was getting pretty fast, but maybe not.:redface:

I'll have to try cycling as fast as I can (not worrying about hitting anything,lol) and see if I can get it to jam. What I find strange and amusing is that I've never had a problem with my Rossi other than a broken firing pin, but guys that are running 1000$ rifles have had tons of problems.
Cheers!
 
I was thinking that my last post sounded like I was tooting my own horn a little too much. And that's why I also included the fact that others that are both slower and faster than me have had the same issue with the 92 action in the past or currently just live with it because of the cost of upgrading to a Uberti 1873 plus action job.

At the risk of further sounding like I'm tooting that horn I'll modestly add that I generally do pretty well in the regional results in Sr Duelist and Frontiersman categories over the past couple of years here in BC and had to hang some winning plaques up on the wall in my basement as a result. Hopefully that further clarifies what I'm describing as "rapid cycle speed".

My own rifle has had some internal smoothing and blue printing along with the lighter power spring kit. So it pretty much cycles almost effortlessly. And there's no doubt that this is a key part of the ability to cycle it rapidly. If you're still running stock springs in yours then a fair comparison is you trying to run across a chest high swimming pool while I'm up on the deck walking semi quickly across the same distance. It will be easy for me to be both faster and use a lot less energy.

If you are still running stock springs about 80% of the improvement I found came from the springs alone. Contact Rusty Wood Trading for one of his $20'ish kits. You'll quickly find that you can't stop smiling at the results.
 
I'm with BCRider. I run both the Lee 325-125-RF and 358-158-RF in my Rossi rifle. Of the two, the 125 gr bullet is the smoothest and most reliable. But only in 357 brass. The 130 grain bullet is essentially the same. Rossi rifles can be finicky. And do seem to prefer a long cartridge...the 357 being ideal. I believe this is so because these rifle's actions are designed and timed to operate best with factory 357 cartridges....which feature a RNFP profile. Mine will cycle semi-wadcutter bullets perfectly in 357 cartridges(RCBS 158 gr mold, Nominal 1.490" OAL), as well as in 38 special ( RCBS 158 gr mold. Nominal 1.470" OAL). Though I believe the long OAL of the 38 special cartridge seems to be the key. Still, if the action is run faster than it likes, I do get the occasional jam with the 38 specials. I agree with BCRider. This seems to be a trait with Model 92 rifles...even the Winchesters. My Rossi doesn't like to run RNFP bullets at all, in 38 special. The OAL of these cartridges, at a nominal 1.450" is too short. Jams are frequent.
Lately I've been running 231/HP 38 in my rifles, but 3.5 grains Titegroup, like Lister uses, runs very well in 38 special. In 357, start at minimum load and work up. I found that 4 grains performed well in my rifles, but your rifle may have its own preferences. A word of caution: Even if you are running powder coated bullets and want to push them pretty fast, it still pays to start off at the minimum powder charge and work your way up. Just like developing any other load. Your rifle will soon tell you what it likes. The Hodgdon Reloading site should have plenty of information to get you going.
 
FWIW in my cowboy .38's for the handguns I like 3.6 of Titegroup. This is a little closer to the max but I like it because it feels like I'm doing something when I'm up there. I'm one of those that'll give folks that shoot "girly" loads a good natured ribbing so I can't really get away with running them myself.... :d

Which explains the near max allowable of 4 grns of Titegroup in my rifle rounds. I'm just a safe number under the maximum velocity allowed for SASS events with that. It's still darn soft on the shoulder though.

The PC'ed bullets are supposed to be able to run at higher speeds without leading the bore. Sort of a modern version of paper patching. So velocities of over 1500'ish should be achievable without leading the barrel.

My Lyman 49th manual shows that between matching handgun to rifle loads on a few powders you will see something around 250 to 300fps gain. Of course all this depends on WHAT handgun and WHAT rifle. But this is a valid ball park value. The rifle data for a 158gn cast lead are up around 1600'ish fps. So we're talking a serious amount of power and not a bad drop over a couple of hundred yards.
 
BCRider--I agree about the spring kit/action smoothing job. I did that a couple years ago and I couldn't stop smiling! It significantly improved my speed. Don't worry, I wasn't thinking you were bragging, just passing on info.
I checked my notes last night. I started out at 3.5gr. of Titegroup but found it a bit low, so ended up running 3.8gr. Part of the reason for that was my powder measure was having some issues being consistent at the lower powder throw.
Alex McK--Although I do seat my bullets well forward to get a bit longer-than-average- OAL I don't know if that explains why I don't have a jamming problem. If it's jamming on 38s' but not 357s' length may be an issue for sure, but do you think some people may be short-stroking the 38's to cause some jamming?
 
Thanks for the input from everyone, I should have mentioned it is a Chiappa 1892 lever. I took it out last night and tried a few of me revolver loads through it. It had a really hard time cycling anything with a flat nose on it but did really well with some 158 round nose loads I had. I also have some 125 round nose cast that I will load up and try next. My revolver loads are in the 2.7-3.1 gr of Titegroup so I am going to bump that up as well.
 
Lister: I believe you are right. Short stroking the Rossi 92 is to blame for some of the issues with 38 special cartridges jamming. I have had that issue myself. Likely because my main match rifle is an Uberti 1873 with a short-stroke kit installed....the Rossi being a backup rifle....so muscle memory has me operating the lever to a certain point coinciding with the Uberti's short stroke cycle. I have to really watch that I fully complete the stroke when shooting the Rossi, otherwise I do short stroke the action and a jam results.
Still, I do find that my rifle seems to prefer a long cartridge, especially in 38 special.
The cartridges I use in my revolvers and the Uberti, for example, are loaded to a nominal OAL of 1.450"-1.453". These feature a 125 grain LRNFP, and function flawlessly.
When I bought the Rossi a while back I figured that I could use the same ammo with both rifles. Saving a lot of hassle by not having to sort out which ammo to bring to a match. Granted these cartridges (1.450" LRNFP) will work in the Rossi....sometimes functioning perfectly, as long as I do my part. But, they have a tendency to double feed...in other words..the cartridge is just short enough that, as it feeds onto the lifter (lifter is in down position), there is enough space between it and the following round, that sometimes magazine spring pressure will push the next round out too....past the cartridge stop and jamming the action right up. I believe that the magazine spring's stronger spring pressure overcomes the relatively weak spring of the cartridge stop, allowing the round to go forward. This usually occurs in the first 3 or 4 rounds, so I suspect that is what is happening. The first round invariably ending up slipping over the end of the lifter and partially jamming under the bolt. Then I have to remove the magazine end cap and spring, clear the magazine tube and pop out the offending cartridge. A giant pain in the rear, to put it mildly. Luckily, as mentioned, this is my backup rifle should my main rifle ...the Uberti...go down. But...I expect the Rossi to be just as reliable...so can't have this kind of thing happening. Even in practise.
When I use a longer 1.470" 38 special cartridge though (LSWC)...there is far less room ahead of the cartridge on the lifter to allow the next cartridge to go forward...so jamming is pretty much eliminated. Unless I do something stupid, like short stroke the lever. So I do believe that my rifle, at least, is showing a clear preference for a long cartridge. When I run the rifle with 357 cartridges...regardless of the bullet profile...it runs flawlessly. It bears mentioning that I have recently made a slight modification to the magazine spring....shortening it another 1/2". In testing, even while running the action fairly slowly (where a lot of the jams would occur), every 38 special cartridge, both long and short...loaded and ejected without issue. In my case then, it is possible that there was just a tad too much spring pressure working on the cartridges and this was pushing them past the cartridge stop. I have heard of Rossi rifles being finicky about spring length, so I've been adjusting it a bit at a time until it works just right. I haven't yet had a chance to get to the range and test this theory, but likely will tomorrow.
It bears mentioning that, even though my Rossi has a 20" barrel, the springs in these rifles are the same length as in the 24" model...so some shortening of the spring is usually required to reduce the excess spring pressure and facilitate loading all 10 rounds into the shorter rifle's magazine. Another mod I may do is shim the left cartridge guide to move the end of the cartridge stop closer to the center. This may allow the hook on the end of the stop to engage the rim of the next round in the magazine with more surface area. Thereby preventing spring pressure from pushing past it. Will try that, too.
So....I guess at the end of this windy dissertation....so far it appears that my Rossi prefers a long cartridge. In 38 special: at least 1.470" OAL. At least, that is my theory to this point. After I do a bit more tinkering with the rifle (don't we all?), I might have a clearer picture of what is going on. That could also be the reason why you are not having any issues with jams...as you also load a longer than normal 38 special cartridge. Food for thought.
 
Yes, I fully agree about the spring tension in the magazine. When I did the 'action-smoothing' job the instructions I had said to take off what to me seemed like a lot of coils. I hadn't run into any issues with the next round being pushed out, so I just took off (as I recall) 1.5 or 2 coils to lessen the force needed to load the mag. since the problem I did have was cartridges flying all over if I didn't have the loading gate fully closed. Rather aggravating at the loading table!
It seems like you might have a good point about me not having issues due to my longer OAL. I'll have to load some shorter rounds and see if they stick!
Some good info here, thanks guys, thanks.

misterzr--yes, bumping up your Titegroup grains would be a good idea I think. Those might be OK in your revolver, but entering squib territory in a rifle. Good luck.
 
According to "Nate Kiowa Jones", the Rossi guru...the magazine spring (at rest) should protrude about 4" beyond the end of the magazine tube, for proper functioning. I had cut mine down to about 5". That made loading easier, but still had a problem with double feeds. At 4 1/2" the double feeds were still persisting, so I took off another 1/2" and now have the spring right on 4" above the end of the tube. So far, this seems to be working, but only range time and lots of shooting will tell for sure. Problem is having the time to do it. Weather is beginning to cooperate, but there always seems to be a pile of things to do that get in the way. Though you likely use him as a resource already...most Rossi guys I know sure do..."Nate" is a pretty straight up guy, plus very knowledgeable about the rifles. It might be worth your time to load up a few shorter rounds and see what happens. If nothing else, the experience is always worth the effort.

I know what you mean about the cartridges flying out of the open loading gate. Had it happen to me a couple of times when I had it open and removed my finger from the end of the last cartridge and the whole works fired out like I'd stepped on a tube of toothpaste. There's me scrambling about like a one-armed paper hanger trying to catch them! Still, despite having to tinker a bit with my Rossi to get it working the way I want it, I like these rifles. With a bit of smoothing of the internals, and maybe some fussing with springs and cartridge guides, etc., they are capable of running pretty fast. Maybe not quite as fast as an 1873....the '92 action and the way it locks up limits its speed....but fast enough to win matches. I see quite a few guys shooting Rossi rifles who do very well. Best part about Rossi rifles is that you can buy two of them, for about the price of one Winchester 1873, or Uberti clone. They are what they are, though. But still fun.

I agree with you on bumping up the Titegroup loads. Don't have the info right in front of me, but I believe 3.1 grains is right about the recommended minimum charge for this powder in 38 special. So loading below that would not likely have resulted in good performance. For me, I found that 3.5 grains worked well for both pistol and rifle.
 
Alex, you had me laughing at the thought of the toothpaste analogy! ! ! :d

I've certainly had my share of short stroke jams in my early days. But the nature of the jamming from short stroking is far different from the jam that occurs from too short a bullet. The short round jam occurs when the nose of the round isn't located in the chamber when the rim begins to ride up through the angled pass on the cartridge guides.

My "educated guess" is that if cycled a little more slowly and deliberately that gravity acting on the cartridge is enough to hold the round down while the rim navigates up through the guiding path. But if pushed more quickly the pressure from the angled path in the guides kicks the nose up and we end up with the round "pointing at the sky" with the bolt half closed and jammed against the casing that still has the rim down in the guides.

But with the .357Mag cases and proper bullet loading the nose of the bullet is already in the mouth of the chamber and holds the bullet down.

And to support this when I do get jamming from SWC bullets or even recently on my lighter crimped rounds why it was that the lip on the SWC and the edge of the casing were rammed hard against the UPPER edge of the chamber opening, not the lower edge. And trust me, I've had lots of opportunity to see this exact sort of jam occur while reaching up to push the nose down into the chamber to allow carrying on.

Which also suggests, now that I think of it, that a little more flaring out of the chamber mouth around the upper edge and down the sides might just be in order. Thanks for making my brain work on this. I'd never really given it this level of thought on the nature of the fast cycling jams.

My most recent "fix" was to use a fairly heavy taper crimp on the cases so that running a finger over the cartridge made it feel like the ogive of the bullet kept running down the first 1/16" of the case. But I think I'm going to run up this last idea of slightly flaring out the chamber and see if that helps. I'll still taper crimp the ammo as well. But it would be nice for the life span of the brass if I don't need to use as heavy a taper crimp as I presently use.

Misterzr, I hope you don't run into the various problems with your Chiappa that a couple of local folks found. A local smith working on these found that they seem to just use a lot of the .45Colt parts in the smaller chamber size gun. As a result you may find that you end up needing to run a slip tube and new magazine spring to aid in lining up the cartridges to avoid that whole double feed thing. The slip tubes and new spring kits are available for 1873's that have this issue and it's a great fix for that gun which may help you out if you run into the next round slipping by the interrupter finger. If it is an issue you'll find that the failure mode is when the next round slips by the finger and wedges in under the elevator and locks the lever open. Hopefully you never see this happen.
 
BCRider: You are exactly right....cycling the 92 action faster than it likes can and will result in a bullet pointing nose upwards into the sky. I found that if I slowed down a little and got the cadence just right, the cartridges cycled and fired without a hitch. I get the occasional bullet nose hanging up on the upper lip of the chamber too. In my case, bullets with a fairly wide meplat seem to be the culprit. For example: Lee 158 grain RNFP. For the most part these cycle just fine. But occasionally, I can feel one snag as it goes in. Not so much with 38 special...mostly with 357 cartridges. For the same reason you mention....the bullet's nose wants to be aligned just inside the chamber mouth. Change that alignment by just a few fractions of an inch...and the round hangs up.

Rossi rifles do seem to favour a RNFP bullet profile. I can notice how easily this profile of bullet even feeds into the magazine tube. Granted, mine will cycle LSWC bullets just fine. But that could be because of the RCBS mold I use...the bullet's nose profile is slightly rounded and not overly wide...nor is the meplat. Even though it is 158 grains. I also have a 150 grain Lee mold that feeds fine too.

I have heard of other Rossi owners that opened up the chamber mouth a bit to facilitate feeding. It certainly makes sense. In my case, a good polishing of the chamber mouth seemed to be the ticket. That, and picking bullets that weren't too broad across the nose. Still, I wouldn't object to opening it up a bit more, if that helped. I see the logic of your heavy taper crimp. That would certainly facilitate feeding, as it would, in effect, create a more rounded bullet profile. Less prone to hanging up. The downside is case life. 38 brass is pretty cheap...especially once fired brass. Just the same, it is better when you can squeeze a few more reloads out of them before they crack.

I recently read on another forum where a Rossi owner did the same thing to his rifle (slip tube), in order to get 38 caliber cartridges to feed properly. As I understand it, the magazine tubes on all Rossi rifles, regardless of caliber...as well as Chiappa, are the same diameter as used on the larger cartridges, like 45 colt, etc. This being the case, smaller diameter cartridges...like the 38/357.... often won't align straight in the tube...but cockeyed, in a zig-zag. Apparently this can result in poor cartridge alignment, feeding, and frequent hang ups. A smaller diameter slip tube was the cure. Makes sense. Apparently the conversion is pretty simple. Seat the tube...then drill alignment holes to match those for the existing magazine cap screw. A bit of extra minor fitting at the receiver end perhaps, and 38 caliber chamber plug...but essentially that was it. In the forum, the poster went on to say that this isn't confined to Rossi or Chiappa. Apparently Winchester and Uberti magazine tubes are the same. But for some reason...perhaps better fitting and finishing compared to Rossi or Chiappa...don't suffer from this problem. Food for thought.
 
A retraction is in order. My information was wrong: Magazine tubes on current 38/357 Rossi rifles are indeed scaled to size for that caliber. Can't speak for Chiappa rifles. Which only goes to show that you can't always believe what you read on gun forums....except CGN, of course. Interestingly, my Uberti 1873 does have a magazine tube that is on the large size for the caliber. Doesn't seem to affect function, though.
 
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