Trade Gun Question

jpc

jpc

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Hello:

This one came from Northern Ontario where it hung over a cabin door for many years.
Were they 'all made' with long barrels and some shortened later?
This survivor is wearing a 36" one.
*Brooks & Son 1854*

take care

jpc



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Story is that the length of the barrel equated to the number of furs brought to the post (so varying barrel lengths available) but the longer barrels were prized. The sales pitch to the trappers was that the longer the barrel, the better the gun. Of course, that is only true to a point - and the furs were worth exponentially more than the muskets, so if the traders could convince the trappers to bring in more furs for less goods (i.e. firearms) then the greater the profit to HBC (or NWC). Most of the time, the Traders got the better deal by far on those.
 
The LOCK was the expensive part to make.

To make a long Barrel, all you did was start the weld properly and keep on working.

I have TWO old trade guns, both from the East Coast. One has a 46-inch barrel, the other a 56-inch barrel.

The one with the short barrel is on a 'prentic-made soft-iron Pattern 1853 Lock. The Barrel, also, is definitely 'prentic-made (sloppy filing: no Master would name it, I'm sure): starts as Octagonal at the Breech end, goes to 16 sides, then an elaborate Wedding-band, then Round with a taper to the Muzzle. Very nice half-stock 11-bore, good shooter but needs the Lock tightened up due to soft parts. The long-barrel gun is stocked right to the Muzzle and is on a converted India-pattern flintlock. It is about a 9-bore, paper-thin barrel at the Muzzle, and was used for almost 150 years in birding, whaling and a spot of piracy.

So long barrels were very much the thing. Everyone knew that a long barrel "shot harder" than a short barrel; I have been TOLD THIS by men who shot these guns for a lifetime. AND it was more accurate (proves that a 4-foot sigh radius is more accurate than a 1-foot radius, but let's not disturb anyone). What people BELIEVE is more important than what you can PROVE!

And, yes, the long-barreled guns cost more. The HBC had a definite scale of trade values for guns and it was not SUPPOSED to be a stack of Prime Made Beaver the height of the Muzzle, but my Grandfather (fur-grader/trader at Fort Edmonton) assured me that sometimes a gun WOULD sell for a very high price.

Once the lands were settled and, especially, after breech-loading came in. there were lots of ex-military muzzleloaders available and many of them DID get cut-down, although many did not. I have a French 1852 Musket here which has been chopped, 1855 barrel date, St.-Etienne markings on the Lock. A FOOT has been chopped from the Barrel, 2 feet from the Woodwork. That one is beyond restoration, so it is going to be refurbed as a Sporter, made to look a bit better.

The gun in point is definitely a Trade Gun; no flintlocks had been made for the military for close to 20 years when this one was built. This gun is BUILT LIKE a Bess but a 36-inch barrel is 3 inches shorter than the Indian Pattern, 6 inches shorter than a New Land, 10 inches shorter than a Land Musket. Your Stock has very Bess-like decoration patterns behind the Lock and the whole thing is put together like a Bess, with Pins rather than Bands. The Lock, however, is a more modern shape.

Beautiful old piece! A big bag of TLC, a quart of RLO, a cup of BLO, some very careful work, and she'll be back making noise again!

What a lovely old PRIZE!
 
Neat info as always there Smellie, always enjoy reading your posts.

I have also read where a lot of Trade Guns were made by apprentices and have seen a few examples in museums that sure appeared that way.

Would LOVE one of these examples myself, rough or not.
 
You sure are finding some nice stuff lately are you finding many horse shoes too:):p .I think NorthCoastBigbore is right on with his story That to me is a perfect example of the so called north west trade gun , has the makinaw trigger guard , serpent side-plate, and really should have a sitting fox on the lock and or barrel . I am sure someone will correct me on that statement. Anyways nice old stuff. Congrats again.
 
BSA Jack said:
You sure are finding some nice stuff lately are you finding many horse shoes too:):p .I think NorthCoastBigbore is right on with his story That to me is a perfect example of the so called north west trade gun , has the makinaw trigger guard , serpent side-plate, and really should have a sitting fox on the lock and or barrel . I am sure someone will correct me on that statement. Anyways nice old stuff. Congrats again.
Click to expand...


Thanks :) and no fox
 
the true trade guns (like the one the OP shows) were made in three barrel lengths; 30, 36 and 42 inches. My impression is that they sold for about 20 beaver apiece. I think the length was based in part on what the market wanted and I also recall reading that the HBC went cheap one year and sent out belgian guns. I gather there were enough complaints over them that from then on, only british guns were sent
Having said all that, John Jewitt, of Jewitt's Narative fame apparently spent the outbound trip to the west coast of Vancouver Island, salvaging and making shootable as many guns as possible from several thousand surplus military guns his ship carried.

cheers mooncoon
 
"the true trade guns were made in three barrel lengths; 30, 36 and 42 inches"


Thanks mooncoon

I have wanted to know that answer for a long time :)

take care

jpc
 
The guns were made to specific patterns. Barrels could be 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2 or 4 feet long. Three and a half and three feet were the most common, 2 1/2 were later. The one pictured is a very typical late flint gun. It is a bit unusual, in that the tombstone fox mark of the HBC would be expected to be on the lock and barrel. By the early 1870s the flint locks disappeared, being replaced by Enfield style percussion locks. Throughout the 19th century, conventional sporting guns were traded along with the serpent sideplate Northwest guns.
 
Hi:

Still soaking one of the lock screws to get it apart. Once the lock is off I would be interested in 'preserving' the stock "A big bag of TLC, a quart of RLO, a cup of BLO". :):):)
Any suggestions how I go about doing this without destroying it's current beauty?

take care

jpc
 
You know people try to age their old guns to look like that. Here is all I can say BLO not to be confused with boiled linseed oil can never hurt anything, My Dad would never tell me the secret-- I suspect some sort of varnish and bear grease:) -- thin coats --let dry rub in . I really like your old gun and will take it just as it is :p
 
BSA Jack said:
You know people try to age their old guns to look like that. Here is all I can say BLO not to be confused with boiled linseed oil can never hurt anything, My Dad would never tell me the secret-- I suspect some sort of varnish and bear grease:) -- thin coats --let dry rub in . I really like your old gun and will take it just as it is :p
Click to expand...



I like it the way it is too :):) Just thought there would be some way to help out the wood
 
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